Lead ammo ban on public lands

[Bambistew]

I'm know what stocks I'm buying today, and will be stocking up on reloading supplies.Pretty chickenshit move, but at least they didn't ban hunting... yet

https://www.fws.gov/policy/do219.html

 

[Ben Lamb]

1.) This is not a ban, but an order to establish a timeline for implementing an expansion of non-toxic ammo & fishing tackle on USFWS lands

2.) It only applies to USFWS land, not all public land.

3.) Non-toxic is generally required for all upland and waterfowl on USFWS lands already. This order would expand it to fishing and rifle ammunition.

4.) I've been using non-toxic sinkers for fishing for over a decade and find them just as effective and the cost difference is negligible.

5.) Studies on lead and raptors indicate that it's a serious issue.

6.) $5 and a 40 of PBR says it gets revoked pretty quickly.

 

[Schaaf]

What did MThuntinfool know yesterday when starting the thread about copper bullets...

 

[Bambistew]

Oh just a time line to establish a ban. That makes it better.

Do you know how much land that is in AK? It's a shitload. About 1/3 of the hinting in AK is on USFWS lands.At the rate of inclusion under the Antiquities Act its only going to expand, will it not?

The selection of nontoxic fishing weights is not very wide... small stuff sure, but price stuff for bigger fish and it gets spendy quick if you can find it.

I agree, it will likely get amended, but it's not going away... maybe for 4 years.

All these rules start somewhere.

Like I said I know what I'm buying today...

A major win for Mining!!! Go Pebble!

 

[James Riley]

I support it.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Oh just a time line to establish a ban. That makes it better.

Do you know how much land that is in AK? It's a shitload. About 1/3 of the hinting in AK is on USFWS lands.At the rate of inclusion under the Antiquities Act its only going to expand, will it not?

The selection of nontoxic fishing weights is not very wide... small stuff sure, but price stuff for bigger fish and it gets spendy quick if you can find it.

I agree, it will likely get amended, but it's not going away... maybe for 4 years.

All these rules start somewhere.

Like I said I know what I'm buying today...

A major win for Mining!!! Go Pebble!

See #6 & read this:

Sec. 6 When is this Order effective? This Order is effective immediately. It remains in effect until we incorporate it into the Fish and Wildlife Service Manual, or until we amend, supersede, or revoke it, whichever comes first. If we do not amend, supersede, or revoke it, the provisions of this Order will terminate on July 31, 2018.

Be honest, since the NRA is going to own the courts, congress and the white house, do really think it's long for this world?

 

[Nemont]

I use a lot of nontoxic shot for waterfowling and there isn't anything close to lead at the same price. Still lethal but not lead for the same or even similar price. Hevishot is $3 a shotgun shell, lead is 50 cent per.

 

[Zach]

Yeah, no ban in CA just a timeline...

The condors are resting easy now.

 

[Ben Lamb]

I use a lot of nontoxic shot for waterfowling and there isn't anything close to lead at the same price. Still lethal but not lead for the same or even similar price. Hevishot is $3 a shotgun shell, lead is 50 cent per.

Kent & Rio brought back their bismuth loads. It's still pricey, but cheaper than hevi-shot. You already have to non-toxic for upland it if you hunt the NWR system. My upland guns can't handle steel, so I use the Kent and like it.

 

[Bambistew]

So if Hillary would have won, would #6 still be a reality? Just currious. Trump is the devil, well in most instances.

This issue isn't going away.

One last thought... can an executive order be issued to ban hunting? It seems like killing animals with a gun, is also pretty detrimental to their health.

 

[Nemont]

Kent & Rio brought back their bismuth loads. It's still pricey, but cheaper than hevi-shot. You already have to non-toxic for upland it if you hunt the NWR system. My upland guns can't handle steel, so I use the Kent and like it.

You aren't gunning 10lb plus honkers. Like I said, non tox is still lethal but it isn't lead for the same price point, it ain't even close. I don't hunt upland on any NWR so I load up on a lot of No. 6 shot lead 12 and 20 gauge shells. They work just great all the time out of my shotguns, even my Franchi O/U.

I am not opposed to banning lead where appropriate but the claim that there are alternatives that work just as good at the same price point is an inaccurate and misleading statement.

 

[Ben Lamb]

You aren't gunning 10lb plus honkers. Like I said, non tox is still lethal but it isn't lead for the same price point, it ain't even close. I don't hunt upland on any NWR so I load up on a lot of No. 6 shot lead 12 and 20 gauge shells. They work just great all the time out of my shotguns, even my Franchi O/U.

I am not opposed to banning lead where appropriate but the claim that there are alternatives that work just as good at the same price point is an inaccurate and misleading statement.

Never had a problem killing a big goose w/ the Black Cloud BB's. Steel isn't as cheap as lead, but it does work fine out of my 870 w/ a mod choke. I don't believe I ever said they were the same price point.

Although it's pretty funny listening to guys with $1000 goose guns complaining about $170 flat of ammo.

 

[JoseCuervo]

The selection of nontoxic fishing weights is not very wide... small stuff sure, but price stuff for bigger fish and it gets spendy quick if you can find it.
!

Just as a word of advice, from your own health standpoint, and the health of your family as you take them fishing, please minimize the use of lead, and their opportunity to handle the stuff. If you can find other options, all the better.

From CDC:

Some studies have found lead can be absorbed through skin. 1 If you handle lead and then touch your eyes, nose, or mouth, you could be exposed. Lead dust can also get on your clothes and your hair. If this happens, it’s possible that you may track home some of the lead dust, which may also expose your family.

 

[Flatland Crusoe]

Non toxic shotgun shells are not really much more expensive than lead ones at the same cost. Sure you can compare the cost of black cloud to $5.50 boxes federal target ammo, but its not really apples to apples. Comparing prairie storm to black cloud is a more realistic cost evaluation. I've seen steel shot target ammo for same cost as lead as a lot of our state ranges require non toxic shot for trap.

I don't see the issue as hunters moving to non toxic shot if its good for the environment. It was a much bigger issue for for waterfowl and shotgun shell performance than it is for copper monolithic bullets compared to cup and core ones. A lot of guys are shooting Barnes copper because its a good bullet design. The cost will come down over time, but will always be more expensive than lead by a little.

 

[beginnerhunter]

So if Hillary would have won, would #6 still be a reality? Just currious. Trump is the devil, well in most instances.

This issue isn't going away.

One last thought... can an executive order be issued to ban hunting? It seems like killing animals with a gun, is also pretty detrimental to their health.

Speaking of hunting bans. I watched a video of a trainer trying to coax a scared dog into jumping in some water. I felt sorry for the dog, but the internet wanted to murder the guy. Now the animal rights movie "A Dog's Purpose" is receiving boycott threats. Has no one ever tried to bathe a freaking dog???

Later I watched a youtube video of a moose arrowed and shooting blood out of its mouth and wound. It was a graphic video but a clean, ethical kill. But juxtaposing that with the backlash over the dog video I thought "we're screwed".

 

[buckbull]

Just as a word of advice, from your own health standpoint, and the health of your family as you take them fishing, please minimize the use of lead, and their opportunity to handle the stuff. If you can find other options, all the better.

From CDC:

I only wish I had that much time to fish to worry about this.

 

[Ben Lamb]

FYI: Obama did expand hunting opportunities on the USFWS system: http://wbtw.com/2016/07/20/u-s-fish...g-opportunities-on-national-wildlife-refuges/

 

[Festus]

Just as a word of advice, from your own health standpoint, and the health of your family as you take them fishing, please minimize the use of lead, and their opportunity to handle the stuff. If you can find other options, all the better.

I'm certainly not trying to be smart, but surely my brothers and I weren't the only ones (70's and 80's) that used to make all our own lead jigs and split shots and then use our teeth to crimp them on the line? Them fancy fishin pliers was too spensive. We al theree turnked out KO.....

That said, I wouldn't let my kids do that today.

 

[James Riley]

That said, I wouldn't let my kids do that today.

That there is the key. I wouldn't let my kids go in the science room closet in sixth grade and play with the gallon jug of mercury, spilling it from hand to hand, and chasing little beads all over the damn floor trying to get it back in the bottle. I may think I turned out all right but I look around the world today and wonder about my generation.

Oh, and if you want to siphon gas? Don't. Try walking instead.

 

[Nemont]

To keep beating a horse that will quickly be put down. I can buy a case of Remington No. 6, 2 3/4 in, 1330 fps, Ounce and quarter Pheasant loads for $74.99 a case or $7.49 a box. Black Cloud on sale from Cabelas for No. 2, 3 in, Ounce and Quarter, 1450 fps for $183.90 a case or $18.39 a box. Now I know in the big scheme of things buying a $5,000 trailer, $10,000 worth of blinds, flags, decoys, etc and a $1,500 Beretta A400 and all the gas scouting that the shotgun shells are cheap just like the license fees. I shot the most roosters ever this year and I am hear to tell that you don't need prairie storm to put birds in the bag and I shot a boat load of ducks and geese and if I had lead I would be happier with the killing power.