Law Enforcement on Public Lands

[TheTone]

I feel bad for those Wyoming officers with the stupid red shirt and blue jeans

FS and BLM are terribly understaffed with Leo’s but it’s part of a bigger issue with lack of funding. The amount of truly awful people that are on our public lands anymore is reason enough to have more of them. My local county does forest patrol under a contract but that’s just one deputy, basically just weekends for about 5 months

 

[more_cowbell]

Hardly ever see any Federal or State LEOs in National Forest in NE Oregon. 15+ years ago I would occasionally see State Patrol LEO during hunting season patrolling, but not any more. Since then, the County Sheriff was contracted with USFS for one deputy to enforce closed USFS roads against ATV use in hunting season, but with a lot of hours spent in USFS in the fall, I don't think I've ever seen them more than once or twice. Have seen a lot of out of towner ATVs buzzing around, however. Notifying local USFS doesn't seem to do anything.

One issue with the position is that with the number sketchy people now out there (which you should presume are armed and whacked out on drugs/don't have good reasoning skills), you'd almost need LEOs paired up. Being on patrol by yourself with backup 30+ minutes away isn't enticing. But paired up costs more.

 

[Dougfirtree]

It’s not just the west. We have similar issues in the east, even if the scale is a bit different. I will say though, that I have never hunted in Wyoming without running into the local warden at some point during the trip. I get the sense that those folks work ridiculous hours during hunting season. And I'm guessing they don't get rich doing it. More often than not, I've found them to be good folks and enjoyed the interaction.

 

[elkfanatic]

I'm from the Midwest and hunt a lot of public land here in my state. Northern part of Indiana I encounter LEO's quite frequently, some are good, some are power tripping. Southern part of the state I've only encountered one twice,two years in row. Second encounter he remembered me from the year before and didn't even check my license,just wanted to chat about deer populations and deer health. Out of state in Nebraska, Oklahoma, Colorado, Montana I've yet to see any LEO's on public ground but usually I'm only at the trail heads for a couple hours before heading in to make camp a couple miles in.

 

[44hunter45]

I'm betting the worst behavior is concentrated in a few geographic spots. A$$holes move around, no doubt, but the partying types hole up in the same swimming holes and rock pits every weekend. In our county I know where the keggers and bonfires will be every weekend. They have been in the same places forever. I'm betting 90% of the medical emergencies happen out of these camps as well. I know of more than a few over the years.

Even as a kid I remember my dad pointing out those, "Damned Hippies" squatting in the same place every year as we went to round up cows. Their camp was a regular warren of cars, kids, and trailers.

@Hunting Wife - It was 40 years ago. But my former BIL was a biologist on the Nez Perce NF. Despite his lack of training or credentials, he fancied himself a LEO and open carried in uniform. The District never told him to stop that I know of.

Even then squatters were a real problem. Most knew the regs as well as the USFS folks and would move camp every couple of weeks. Others seemed to dare the USFS to remove them. The BIL always knew where they were. I suspected it was because he was getting his dope from them.

Idahoans who are old enough will remember that Congresswoman Helen Chenoweth introduced a bill back in the day to require Federal land management agencies to stand down on employing LEOs. The idea being that there were enough Federal LEOs already. She was pandering to her supporters and the bill did not get far. One of her other major grandstands was trying to end the ESA.

 

[LuketheDog]

I always feel more at ease talking to a Wyoming Game warden wearing a Stormy Kromer or cowboy hat

Funny you should mention that, the two best wardens I've met in Colorado wore a Stormy Kromer and a cowboy hat. The Stormy Kromer guy checked our deer camp 4-5 years in a row and became something of a friend. Once there was another group in the parking lot with a their carcass tag incorrectly placed, he saw it from afar and told me I should go mention to them to move it before he got there and had to give a lecture (I did, they didn't). Another time he pulled up as we were coming out of the hills from camp and noticed that a rookie hunter who'd started a fire (a real fire) the previous season was not with us, and he shouted "Where's Sparky at?!", then proceeded to have a real door-slapping laugh about it. Good dude.

 

[one ate E grain]

Lots of homeless camped all over public land here. Sometimes the camps get pretty large with all kinds of stuff going on, not all of the model citizens.

Beyond that there are abandoned lit fires, and all kinds of other careless with the rules types from regular users. A LEO on public lands has to be a better job than down in the city too.

 

[Mallardsx2]

There needs to be more Leo’s checking “hunters” in Wyoming.

The bs I saw when I hunted deer there was unreal. All residents, acting like freaking fools.

 

[Wyhunter]

Wyoming game and fish, and federal law enforcement require extensive degrees that equate to being a biologist. Unfortunately, their pay doesn't match the schooling they require. I was actually going to school for fisheries and wildlife conservation sciences. It doesnt make much sense to get such an extensive degree for the pay. Federal starts around 45k per year and wyo game and fish is around $24 per hour, highly understaffed, and high amounts of overtime. I have a government job that pays me 70k a year to work 4-10's. If they want to attract talent to those positions so they arent so understaffed, they need to pay them accordingly.

 

[MTGomer]

No

 

[Tleek]

I was amazed at the Kit carried by Washington State park personnel. The one I met last weekend looked like she was about to do a raid on a drug house

What you expect:

What they are wearing in the field:

Which tells me that the likelihood for violent contact in parks and public land is high enough that they don't worry about public perception of a tactical entity.

And the number of disenfranchised people moving to public land as their base of operations and contact with LEO's is growing.

Edited to add: A lot of people think if the SHTF they are going to retreat to the "Great American Redoubt" . The truth is for the most of us, we have resources to withstand a few years of economic downturn before we have to "retreat". I'd venture to say there is a larger population than we think that are already on the ropes financially, and they will be the ones to load up the Walter White RV and set up camp in the National Forest, ala "Alaska Bush People"

I knew that CA State Parks Ranger on the bottom when I worked as a park aid in college. Super nice guy. I asked rangers about the vests before and they said they are just easier on the back than carrying all the weight on the belt.

State parks here has totally gotten away from the general ranger that used to lead interp programs, chat with kids, and enforce laws. They are pretty much just law enforcement now in the areas I have worked.

Here in CA at least parks are a whole different animal than NF and BLM lands. I don’t think I have never interacted with NF law enforcement and I’ve been playing on national forest lands my whole life. I did run into two BLM rangers at a popular trail head once. They had a table set up.

 

[hank4elk]

I was on review boards with H. Chenowith. She worked hard on underfunding USFS-LEO's,from what I saw. The FS in general was gutted.

I was a county Park Ranger and was LEO/EMT. The badge was a target. I never wore my pistol on lake patrol, only a PFD. It was always in my pack.
I worked with the local deputies , DFG wardens and FS/LEO's . Daily.
Then I was transferred to the hinterlands and back up was an hour and a half away. My tactics changed. I backed off and called for assistance.
I worked one more weekend at the lake. I was on lake patrol with a deputy. We get a call after 6 hrs on the lake to check on a vehicle in a closed campground. We drove to the site & I opened the door and said "Park Ranger" and the shots were fired.
The suspect was shot dead. A gang banger murderer. Had killed a family.
My weapon had been fired, 4 times. The Parks Dept. wanted to fire me.
The Sheriff gave me a commendation. The County Supervisors gave me a commendation.
I took early retirement 1 year later.
That year of the shooting, 2 CA state Park Rangers were shot and killed. One in my county. I knew him.


Here in NM FS/LEO's are few and far between. I see the vehicles on the hwy, but that's it. Outside of the fire crews the vehicles are blank white. The LEO's have markings.
I have not seen a FS/LEO on a FS road in 10 years at least.

The local sheriff patrols the county roads through the forest, but will not engage in FS issues until requested and then rarely. If a NMG&F person is involved then they join in.
Mostly a blue/red tie issue if you ask me.

The BLM lands are the same. Lots of vehicles at the office. I have never seen a BLM Ranger outside of the hwy, or office. All the ones on the road here are blank white unmarked. I see a handful on BLM lands doing something.
Again ,underfunding/understaffing is the issue.

NM G&F conservation officers cover 2500sqmi, each. Again they are usually alone.

 

[gouch]

I've lived in Southern Oregon for almost 9 years now and I've never once seen a federal LEO out patrolling. Not to say that they don't, just that I suspect there are so few of them that I don't encounter them.

State wildlife officers are nearly as sparse. We only have 100 troopers for the entire state. Never had my hunting license checked here...

I think it's a severe problem across the west.

I've been here 69 years and other than while at work I have only encountered two FS LEO's. The first time, I approached them because I knew I had information concerning their investigation and the other was one of the same LEO's who was just taking some VIP on a tour of the forest. The three of us shared hunting lies for about an hour then went our separate ways.

The Rogue River/ Siskiyou NF is just over 1 million acres and has three LEOs. The forest is so spread out that it could take 7 hours to get from one point on the forest to another. The Medford district of the BLM is just over a half a million acres and has three LEOs. Those guys are rarely on patrol, they are usually involved investigating a known crime, so you aren't too apt to run into them.

One year, while working on the coast we noticed that the parking lot of the motel we were staying at was full of FS cop cars. I met one of them and asked it they were attending some kind of training or something. He said that every year all the LEOs from four forests ban together and spend one week each in different areas of the coast in an effort to crack down on illegal mushroom picking. So that's a month or so with almost no law enforcement on most of the forests.

I've been fishing since I was four and hunting since I was 12 and I have had my fishing license checked five times and my hunting license checked twice in all that time. I got a ticket that second time I got my hunting license checked. It was the first year they required nontoxic shot for ducks. I was wearing an old parka that I hadn't worn for a year and there were two lead shells in the bottom of one of the pockets. I got fined $25 per shell. I sent $50 to the judge with a letter explaining that it was an honest mistake. He lowered the fine to $25 and sent me a refund check for $32. I never did understand this new math.

 

[Derek44]

Wouldn’t be against more of them. But it would be nice if they focused on public land. Our local game warden, (North Central Wa.) has been devoting his time as of lately to patrolling state highways and randomly pulling over commercial vehicles for field sobriety tests. While I believe someone shouldn’t be drinking and driving, especially in commercial vehicles, I don’t believe that is our game and fish dept. responsibility. Should be left to local sheriffs and state patrol.

 

[SFC B]

I don't doubt that. It is just that the "Tacti-Cool" appearance gives the impression to folks who are agnostic about law enforcement that the wearer of the vest with 4 extra mags, wraparound shades and a low profile ball cap is that they are looking for a gunfight.
In the metaphor of the old west, it is the equivalent of a fella with a low slung revolver dressed in black vs Marshal Dillon...

Now I know that there are quite a few "Claude Dallas" types out there. There also are a number of veterans of the War on Terror whos introduction to community relations was kicking doors in Fallujah on both sides of the Law....

I realize a badge is equivalent to a Big ol' target for LEO's. But I think community members feel that rather than "Serve and Protect" the Law enforcement is there it "Investigate and Engage Target" . I always feel more at ease talking to a Wyoming Game warden wearing a Stormy Kromer or cowboy hat and a Red shirt.

View attachment 277276

Versus a California Game Warden:

And please Don't think i'm Anti-LEO. My Childhood friend is the undersheriff for our county, my 1 mile neighbor a Deputy, Another Childhood friend is CA DW warden. As well as a number of acquaintances and friends Active duty and Retired city police forces.

I will say from personal experience that carrying gear on a plate carrier/vest is MUCH easier kn your body and allows for greater load and versatility than a gun belt. Also, as sad as it is, EVERY LEO (even more so isolated GF/USFS LEOs) has to be prepared for the absolute worst case scenario EVERY shift. The ability to protect the public and themselves is monumentally more important than public perception of being "too" ready. Think of it this way, that feeling of being at ease you get equates to bad actors seeing vulnerability and opportunity to act accordingly.

 

[Pack'n It]

There are definitely areas that could be patrolled more but for our main hunting area Junction Creek in Durango CO during rifle season there seems to be a warden behind every tree. I have never felt harassed or had a negative experience with them though. I absolutely abhor Texas Game and Fish when it comes to salt water fishing. We have been harassed several times down towards Galveston and never received a citation.

 

[Nameless Range]

Thought this was a good article by Laura Lundquist.

Survey suggests Forest Service under-estimates illegal road use

A Swan Valley environmental group has found more evidence that Forest Service road closures are often ineffective, and the resulting illegal road use threatens Montana’s fish and wildlife.

missoulacurrent.com

I know some of the groups involved have an agenda, but the content of the article tracks with what I see on the landscape. I live next to one of the most highly roaded portions of the USFS system, and the highest road densities in the B-D. The few roads that are closed - either via obstacles or seasonal gates- are chronically violated.

We can have all the plans and travel management our hearts desire, but without teeth and enforcement on the landscape, they're all just suggestions.

 

[TheTone]

Thought this was a good article by Laura Lundquist.

Survey suggests Forest Service under-estimates illegal road use

A Swan Valley environmental group has found more evidence that Forest Service road closures are often ineffective, and the resulting illegal road use threatens Montana’s fish and wildlife.

missoulacurrent.com

I know some of the groups involved have an agenda, but the content of the article tracks with what I see on the landscape. I live next to one of the most highly roaded portions of the USFS system, and the highest road densities in the B-D. The few roads that are closed - either via obstacles or seasonal gates- are chronically violated.

We can have all the plans and travel management our hearts desire, but without teeth and enforcement on the landscape, they're all just suggestions.

I’ve reported multiple broken gates to my local ranger district over the years and I’ve yet to see one fixed. One I found this summer is basically the access point to one of my favorite elk spots; gate is busted in half and the lock gone. My guess is it will be years until it is fixed, the spot will fill with atv’s and the hunting will get much worse.

It’s part of a bigger issue with my local district. I also know of multiple seasonal gates that are supposed to open that haven’t in years and another previously open road that instead of fixing the gate they simply stacked it closed with retaining wall blocks

 

[Farmerj]

The county I live in is 1.74 million acres and we have no resident game warden and 1 Sheriff. Every now and then you will see a HP but not often. Pretty rural and pretty quiet.

Sounds like heaven

 

[seeth07]

I’ve reported multiple broken gates to my local ranger district over the years and I’ve yet to see one fixed. One I found this summer is basically the access point to one of my favorite elk spots; gate is busted in half and the lock gone. My guess is it will be years until it is fixed, the spot will fill with atv’s and the hunting will get much worse.

It’s part of a bigger issue with my local district. I also know of multiple seasonal gates that are supposed to open that haven’t in years and another previously open road that instead of fixing the gate they simply stacked it closed with retaining wall blocks

I don't think that is necessarily tied to law enforcement as much as its tied to budget and priorities for the FS.