Initiative to Eliminate MT Outfitter Sponsored Licenses

[Dinkshooter]

Look no farther than Colorado. Ranching for Wildlife operations have bugle season rifle hunts. The public draw hunts....................................October, maybe even November

 

[Grady]

If this makes the ballot, it will pass. The days of the ag industry running MT is just about over.

Lets hope so......

 

[schmalts]

Sytes, the big issue is also the outfitters using public land to guide with the outfitted tags. This does go on as well and there is no fricking way a hunter that will hire an outfitter deserves a sure chance to draw a tag over a DIY guy hunting public land. Equal draw odds should happen, then the outfitter hired after he finds out if he drew the tag fair and square.

 

[Big Shooter]

Big Fin, you are in Broadus this week huh? Now are you in Broadus trying to make money off of the public's game animals? Because that is exactly what you are doing every time you turn that camera on and try to film a hunt for TV. I have no problem with that at all, but your peanut gallery sure brings up the fact that outfitters and landowners are profiting off of publicly owned game animals........exactly what you are doing believe it or not. Call it what you will, even though you have the correct permits and you are supposedly on public ground, you are still trying to profit off of publicly owned game animals. Tell me that you are not trying to make money with your show because I know better.

And the statement that you made about the businesses making less money.........that proved that you are full of BS! Just so happens that I am in Broadus this week myself and know a lot of people here and you could not be further from the truth. Go ask some landowners and they will tell you the opposite, and they are the ones that keep small communities afloat.

 

[Nemont]

Big Shooter,

The difference is that those permits to film on public lands are open to whomever is willing to put in the time and effort.

Why should 400 businesses be given a state owned asset to sell at the expense of all other residents of Montana? There were outfitters before guaranteed tags there would be outfitters after guaranteed tags, why do you dislike free enterprise and allowing the free market to decide things? Seems odd that a conservative rancher would cling to socialist ideals to make a profit and defend those socialist/liberal ideals as good.

This has zero affect on you property rights. You still get to say who can come and go and whether or not you want to lease your land to whom ever.

The residents of this state granted outfitters the privilege of guaranteed tags and the residents of this state can decide whether or not the Outfitting industry has been good stewards of that privilege. If the majority of those residents vote that the Outfitters have not been good stewards they can revoke the privilege. That is democracy, you have every right to fight it with your time, money and effort and try to affect the outcome to keep them in place and others have just as much right to work to end the practice, unless you dislike the democratic process as well?

Instead of this degenerating into an arguement and name calling why not put your position down in writing so that you could educate everyone as too why guaranteed outfitter licenses should be continued. The big game animals on your place have not been given to you by any deed, claim or legal authority so to claim it is a property right is a false arguement.

Nemont

 

[ringer]

It's all about how much money "I" can make and nothing to do with the ability of some kid to be able to hunt 20 years from now. Dump the fudgepackers and secure your children's right to hunt in the future even if they work at McDonalds. I am sending a contribution to help put a boot on BigShotter's neck.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Yes, hunting season is still a good business cycle for them, but not nearly what it was pre-outfitter tags.

Fin - do you think the economy has had something to do with that? I have a buddy who hunts with outfitters almost exclusively. (Leave opinions about that out for a moment.) He has been hunting almost constantly since late August on discounted deals because people cancelled or people never booked hunts because they couldn't afford it or were worried and not spending money. (He is making more money than ever - God bless him.) I think the economy has had a tremendous impact on both outfitters/guides and the local economy that benefits from NR hunters. Look at the travel industry in general...

 

[JoseCuervo]

(He is making more money than ever - God bless him.)

Interesting that you call on God to bless someone because of their money making ability.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Should I curse him, be petty or jealous? He has worked hard to make his money, and I've known him since he was sleeping on the floor of a studio apartment.

You've been waiting for a while for this, haven't you?

God bless you, too, Jose/Elkgunner.

 

[Big Fin]

Fin - do you think the economy has had something to do with that? .......... Look at the travel industry in general...

Cali:

I was referring to a long-term trend that started in the late 1990's. I think you are referring to the last couple years. No doubt they have had some downturns in the last couple years, as we all have.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Should I curse him, be petty or jealous? He has worked hard to make his money, and I've known him since he was sleeping on the floor of a studio apartment.
r.

Leave it to a Californian to worship someone because of their financial status in the middle of a discussion about hunting access being limited in Montana....

 

[Big Shooter]

NeMont, you are always telling me to answer some questions, so I am asking you the same thing. Is he or is he not, is Big Fin trying (key word is trying) to make money off of publicly owned game animals. The answer to this question is "Yes"...yes he is trying to profit off of publicly owned game animals. That is a fact and you cannot argue that fact. Some of you are the most biased people that I have ever argued with (and believe me, I have argued with a lot of people) but this is BS when you cuss some outfitter or land owner for trying to make some money off of publicly owned game animals when your hero or mentor is doing the same thing.

When Big Fin made the comment about the businesses in Broudus complaining about loss of revenue due to outfitters and their tags..........he is full of chit, because I know for a fact that it is not right. He might be right in his own mind, but in reality he is out in left field. Big Fin, go talk to the motel owners and ask if they are full all season...the answer is yes. Unless they were going to build an addition, they could not handle any more. The outfitters buy gas, so that point is out, and the restaurants still feed plenty of outfitter clients.........so... yeah that is a mute point as well.

You can all have your little circle jerk and tell each other what you want to hear, but I live out here and I know what the general attitude is when it comes to business owners and landowners........they don't mind it at all.

Again, this is an access issue and a jealousy issue. Hey Big Fin......if you want to be an outfitter I am sure that you could with all of your experience. I don't know a lot about it but someone with this much knowledge should be able to do anything.

People, don't kid yourselves.....he is making money off of your "publicly owned game animals" just like any outfitter or landowner.

 

[shoots-straight]

Boy, Shooter, your the thickest headed rancher, I've ever had the misfortune to listen too. Nobody EVER on this site said Big Fin wasn't making money off a public resource. NOBODY, got it dumb ass.
Is what is at issue, (IF YOU CAN FOLLOW SIMPLE READING) is the fact that your sorry arsed outfitter is getting special treatment, by getting a subsidy, a gift from the government, priority, over the rest of the NR hunters wishing to hunt without Outfitters. Also any other business that works in the free market will feel anger at this special treatment. AGAIN FOR YOUR THICK SKULL. Nobody is saying outfitting should be outlawed. The fact that they receive tags to force people to use them is BS.

What Fin is doing, will have no impact upon weather or not more land is leased and locked up exclusivly for NR's using outfitters. The fact that outfitters won't be able to count on a certain number of clients will make it harder for leasing to flourish. Most land owners that want to make money of the hunting of there land should go to BMA's. Do You Follow. I'm sure not, but others with half brains are starting to figure this thing out. Sorry guys, but I can only take so much from an ignorant brown eye.

 

[Big Fin]

Is Big Fin trying (key word is trying) to make money off of publicly owned game animals. The answer to this question is "Yes"...yes he is trying to profit off of publicly owned game animals. That is a fact and you cannot argue that fact.

Shooter: Remember when we had this discussion on this site last spring. If you recall, I never denied that my business model depends upon making money by paying large fees for the right to hunt on public land. And, I told you at that time, I hope every outfitter in MT can make large fortunes in the free market, without government subsidy. Not sure why they would fear operating in a free market, void of government interference.

As Shoot Straight said, it is not about the public wildlife issue, as you keep referring to. It is about a business climate free of government giving subsidy to one party to the detriment of others.

I don't have a state forcing any of my non-resident customers to use me for their chosen activity. Probably would help the business model, but not something I expect, or would be able to defend.

Some of you are the most biased people that I have ever argued with (and believe me, I have argued with a lot of people) but this is BS when you cuss some outfitter or land owner for trying to make some money off of publicly owned game animals when your hero or mentor is doing the same thing.

If I am anyone's hero, they need help. For the three hundredth time, at least for me, it is not about the public wildlife issue, as you keep confusing. It is, and always has been, about a subsidy that funnels a huge amount of commercial activity to a chosen group, allowing that group to use that economic activity to the detriment of others.

When Big Fin made the comment about the businesses in Broudus complaining about loss of revenue due to outfitters and their tags..........he is full of chit, because I know for a fact that it is not right. He might be right in his own mind, but in reality he is out in left field. Big Fin, go talk to the motel owners and ask if they are full all season...the answer is yes. Unless they were going to build an addition, they could not handle any more. The outfitters buy gas, so that point is out, and the restaurants still feed plenty of outfitter clients.........so... yeah that is a mute point as well.

I used Broadus as an example. We will never agree on this one. I have monthly financial statements, over long periods of time, that show the October and November months have decreased for many of our Eastern MT business clients, even though October and November are still good months in their business cycle. Not nearly as good as they once were.

Using your highly scientific method, I just walked down to the Broadus Motel office. It is the Friday before the weekend of peak mule deer rut. Guess what, there are vacancies. I just counted the rooms - 22. I then counted how many were occupied - 6. Hmmh. No need to build an addition tonight. I just asked two of them if they were guided or non-guided. Guess what, they were non-guided, just as I suspect the rest of them are.

And, just got done dropping a hundred dollars for dinner at the Powder River Stockman's Club. Guess how many people were there at 6:30 on this Friday night? Two parties of hunters. I visited with them, and they were non-guided hunters, not guided hunters. No need for an addition to that building either. Place was so desolate, the Prime Rib special might have to be carried over to Saturday.

I am being truthful in those observation and yes, sarcastic. But I find your lack of numbers to support your claims to be a function of your biases. At least I am making claims based on actual results. Maybe you own some of these business and can make such assertions going back for the many years I have business records for. If so, let me know what businesses those are and I will patronize them.

You can all have your little circle jerk and tell each other what you want to hear, but I live out here and I know what the general attitude is when it comes to business owners and landowners........they don't mind it at all.

Maybe landowners don't mind it, but many business owners would prefer it to be back how it was. They sure like non-guided hunters, and they would like more non-guided hunters.

Again, this is an access issue and a jealousy issue. Hey Big Fin......if you want to be an outfitter I am sure that you could with all of your experience. I don't know a lot about it but someone with this much knowledge should be able to do anything.

Like I said, when the state funnels many millions of dollars to one small group, who uses that money to acquire access, it does become an access issue. Not a jealousy issue. Still can't figure where outfitters continue to get this jealousy notion from.

I suspect that if you cannot defend the handouts being provided, based on any rational economic policy, it is time to start throwing out terms like jealousy.

I have enough public land to hunt, so to me it is not an access issue. And, when I stop doing this TV show, I have lots of private land to hunt, so for me, it is not an access issue.

Why would I want to be an outfitter? No thanks. I can think of a million things I would rather do than that. I want to have fun while hunting.

People, don't kid yourselves.....he is making money off of your "publicly owned game animals" just like any outfitter or landowner.

I am paying fees for every hunt I film. If I posted the total of filming fees I paid in the last two years, would you be willing to tell how much you, or any outfitters you know, paid in fees to shoot a whole lot more wildlife than I did? I bet you I paid more than any outfitter in Montana for my use of public lands. In fact, I will buy you as many beers as you can drink here in Broadus.

I will also put those public land use fees up against any operator grazing on public lands in Eastern Montana. I list the fees I paid, you list the fees you, or they paid, and lets talk about the fair market value of the impacts each of us had on the resource. I think we had this discussion last spring, also. You probably don't want to go there.

But, whether my endeavor succeeds or fails, I know it will do so without the government handing me a huge amount of economic activity. My businesses (all three of them) operate in a market not subsidized by government. I don't think the outfitting industry can say that.

For the final time, please defend why you think your industry (whatever that might be), the outfitting industry, or any industry, should be subsidized by the government.

I have to get ready to go hunt whitetails on the public land in the morning, so I hope to read your answer to that question when I get back tomorrow night. And hopefully we can talk about it over a beer. I am buying.

 

[Big Fin]

When Big Fin made the comment about the businesses in Broudus complaining about loss of revenue due to outfitters and their tags..........he is full of chit, because I know for a fact that it is not right. He might be right in his own mind, but in reality he is out in left field. Big Fin, go talk to the motel owners and ask if they are full all season...the answer is yes. Unless they were going to build an addition, they could not handle any more.

Just to prove who is full of dung and who is BSing (that is not a reference to your initials), I just walked down the street and took this pic (evidently from way out in left field). This is Friday evening, the night before the biggest deer hunting weekend in Montana.

As they say, a picture speaks a thousand words. Better hurry and build an addition, real quick . Imagine what it is like on the less-premium hunting weekends.


So, using your citation quoted above, who is full of dung, and who is BSing who?

 

[Nemont]

Big Shooter,

I will answer your question Big Fin is paying for the privilege to film on public land, he takes the financial risk to up front the production money, get sponsors, line up and equip hunts and he does all of it without a guaranteed piece of business to back it up. Outfitters need a guaranteed income before they even think of taking a risk, first they get their quota then go out an lease up the land knowing full well that they have the ONLY guarnateed transferable tag on the market.

So now please answer the question I posed to you. Why should a small percentage of the residents of Montana be allowed to profit at the expense of all other residents of Montana? If you could explain why this subsidy should continue on a rational level that makes sense not only for outfitters but also for non outfitters would help. Instead of resorting to emotional statements just lay out the facts of why this system is fair to resident of Montana.

Again I am pro business, when business prospers I prosper, I have clients and friends who are outfitters, we are still friends even after I voice my opinion and many, many debates. I have helped an outfitter friend on waterfowl hunts before providing my dog and decoys for him when he had more then one group in. Unlike you I can see the other side but cannot sacrifice my beliefs in the free market as the best way to allocate resources, free of government interference. MOGA has nobody to blame but themselves for the current divide they help fuel and do everything in their power to create, perhaps they shouldn't dislike resident hunters so much.

Nemont

 

[sreekers]

I love it when Fin gets into these arguments. His logic and decent way of presenting it is hard to beat, ha.

 

[tjones]

WOw I don't think I have ever seen someone get their ass handed to them like Fin just handed BS Shooter his,,,,,game, set, match ,,,Fin!


Like watching the Freshman play the Varisty.

 

[Big Fin]

I was sure Friday night was a fluke, and there must be some reason why there are only four trucks (all MT) in the parking lot on this rutty Saturday in Broadus, Montana, so again, I walked down the street to see what the vacancy rate was on Saturday night, the best hunting day, of the best mule deer hunting weekend in Montana.

Hmm. I thought maybe the "NO" part of that sign was broken, so I figured I better ask the lady if rooms were available. She quizzically looked at me and said, "Yes, but you already have one."

Told her I was just checking. Wanted to make sure the sign wasn't broke.



Dang, I forgot to ask when she was building an addition so she could handle the complete onslaught of guests she has during hunting season.

 

[T Mac]

10-4 Big Fin !.
Been there.
Now, I'm retired But... I still have an opinion.

I blame the state of Montana, Dept of FW&P.
For years (in the 80's mostly) some residents and many non-residents started leasing up ranches for hunting. Everybody who wanted to become an outfitter simply leased some land and became one.
However, after a while the available tags were becoming an issue.
All those years MT -FWP took the money and allowed an unlimited number of people to become outfitters while the number of tags was limited.
It was a problem obviously waiting to happen.

Hardly any locals liked the idea of all these new guys leasing up everything and becoming "Outfitters"...but we knew, it couldn't last long because not many would be able to make a living and reality would set in from lack of licenses for potential clients.

In those days, I was a fishing outfitter on the side, but mainly owned a motel in Townsend.
At the time MOGA was able to get these tags for outfitters tied up, I thought it was a horrible idea at the time ...and still do. Sure enough, just what would obviously happen, happened.

Our hunting season busness dropped off bigtime..so did the grocery store's, the bars', the cafes'..and every other service business in town. Heck, in the old days you couldn't get a place to sit in the cafes and bars in Townsend during rifle season. It is not that way since that memorable event that guaranteed tags.
Since the outfitteres got those guaranteed tags... you would hardly notice that hunting season was on in Townsend.

It's no different in other popular hunting areas around the state.

Besides the economic impacts, I personally have also lost my turkey hunting places, most of my pheasant hunting and my long time antelope hunting spots to outfitters leasing them.
I do not blame the ranchers. I blame the state for sleeping at the switch starting 20-25 years ago and creating this mess.

I can understand how this is unfair to established outfitters to change the rules back, too.
Still it amazes me that what small businessmen could so plainly see back then, flew over the tops of the heads of MTFWP. They got the wool pulled over their eyes... (Ba-a-a-a-d move)

...........And now we have Cabelas getting into the picture HUGE!