Idaho and A.T.V'S

[Washington Hunter]

Ithaca, what's your opinion on ATV's being allowed behind locked gates? I think it's ridiculous. Let them go behind a locked gate where nobody else can go and they're going to be out of control. How is law enforcement going to enforce any laws? Sure they can probably unlock the gate and drive into that road system but I doubt if they will. Many roads are blocked with boulders and/or a ditch. How are laws and regulations going to be enforced on those roads? Point being, how do we know those ATV's aren't riding cross country and tearing the ground up? I suppose going off road or off trail may be legal in some areas but in others I'm sure it's not. I think we need a new regulation banning any motorized vehicles on any gated or blocked roads, on public lands, and it should be year round, not just hunting season. Also, don't you think all off road riding should be banned on public lands, year round? Seems to me that there are enough roads and trails without ATV's creating new ones.

 

[Ten Bears]

That's asking the choir for support, aint it.

 

[Washington Hunter]

Ten Bears, I didn't mean to exclude you. I'd like your opinion also. Aren't you part of the choir?

 

[Ithaca 37]

Wash., You'd have a tough time finding a locked gate in Idaho that didn't have ATV tracks going around it somehow. Of course it's terrible! And limiting ATVs to established and inventoried roads on public land is the only practical solution. I also think they should start using much larger license plates so they're easier to identify. If the ATV crowd was serious about catching the violaters they'd be lobbying for bigger plates. That's one of the reasons I know they're not serious.

And we all know if they'll go around a locked gate they'll go cross country too.

 

[Ten Bears]

ITHACA, your the first person Ive heard call for bigger license plates. Why license plates, when all you need to ride off road is an off road sticker?

WH, by making it illegal, it would just create another class of illegal activity. We have vast areas that have logging roads through them, but are gated to reduce activity on them. By allowing ATV's etc behind the gates, it helps to spread the user pressure around. Have you ever visited Coeur d' Alene lake on a summer weekend? Where do you think Spokane & Spokane county recreates? I'll give you a clue the initials are ID (look just across the line).

The best way to combat illegal riders is to have legal riders somewhere around.

If you make ATV riding illegal, the illegal rider will do it anyways, and they don't care what you think. Ask GATO, or ask the poaching crew in MT. They did what they did, where they did it, because they knew that the legal riders wouldn't be in the closed area to catch them, and that any other riders in the area were illegal, therefore if they turned anything in, they'd be ratting themselves out as well.

Why do you think poaching hotlines work? Because hunters are in the woods and reporting poachers that they see. Do you think hunters turn in every poacher they see? Not hardly, most don't want to get involved (sound familiar, I could point some here out who have said just that).

We haven't stopped poaching, and we offer to pay people money to report poachers, yet they continue. I guess my next logical step (using the process that I've learned here) is to support the abolition of hunting (right). Hunters haven't stopped the poachers from poaching (poacher kill animals / hunters kill animals therefore poacher = hunters), therefore hunting is wrong, and if we outlawed hunting then there wouldn't be any poachers, right.

Mystery of life solved, next topic.

 

[Ithaca 37]

"Why license plates, when all you need to ride off road is an off road sticker?"

Easier identification of violaters.
Why not?

 

[BuzzH]

Ten, the legal riders out there now sure arent making a very big dent on reporting all the illegal activity? Yet theres plenty of legal riders out there now. HMMMM????

By your logic all the legal riders should be really curbing the illegal activity, but that surely isnt the case. I dont get it?

We could run this issue in circles forever, but really its pointless.

The only thing I know, no matter how self-serving you seem to think it is, ATV's dont belong in use during hunting season, IMO. As a group, I've seen more flagrant violations of rules than any other group of hunters, including foot hunters, horseback hunters, etc. etc. Thats a fact, and its being documented as the #1 complaint hunters have each year. Its a huge problem and the only way to solve it is restrictions.

Ten, you can argue and tell me I'm wrong all day...but it wont change whats going to happen to ATV's, which is more and more restrictions. Thats just the way its going to be, and frankly, I think you're pissing in the wind trying to stop it. But, I encourage you to do what you think is right...and I'll do what I think is right and thats to restrict ATV use any way I can.

Nothing wrong with either of us fighting for what we think is the correct way to handle ATV issues. I'll probably get my way on this one though. If I dont, no big deal, at least I'll know I didnt sit on my ass while things changed around me without putting in my two cents.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-25-2003 22:25: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[Ten Bears]

License plates are required for on road use, off road stickers are required for off raod use. They both have different fees, and purposes. Which do you want?

Why not boat number markings? Would you report a violator if you could read the number?

I'm thinking hunting is about done. Maybe trapping first, I have trapped for years, but this year a trapper killed a dog of a freind of mine. Maybe it's time trapping in idaho to be done, I mean even with our best efforts we still catch dogs.

 

[Ten Bears]

BUZZ, I haven't foot hunted into the areaof a horse camp yet that I haven't found a man-made salt lick for elk somewhere near by. Nor a highline or corral that has destroyed the surrounding vegetation. I think I'll start working to outlaw horse camps.

Maybe hunting in general, God knows I've killed enough animals in my life, and hunters aint curbed or stopped poaching yet.

 

[Michaelr]

The area we hunt for deer used to be open to atv's, until last year.
we found the road leading into the area we hunt closed right at the bottom. guess where we parked. yup, right where the road was closed. 2 atv's and 2 trucks. the road in question is very rocky and has been there for a very long time.
It made for alot longer hike but what the hell its all good country. We did better that day than we ever have. Of six hunters we brought out 3 bucks. So there was a pay off for the not being able to drive the extra 2 miles into the area.

the only problem was that there is another road that leads into the same area only it goes up the bottom where it isn't rocky. they should have closed that road as well or atleast closed it and left the road into the top that is rocky open. by the end of the first weekend when all the road hunters figured out that that was the only road open it was torn to hell, ruts so deep that if you got into them you were in trouble.
Just goes to show that those making the decisions on which roads to close are a bunch of dinks.
It really don't matter much to me. I will always be a foot hunter anyways

I love to hike, that next ridge might be the one with a big buck just over the other side.
I will either drive to my jump off spot with a truck or the 4 wheeler. last year I drove the truck and my two brother in laws drove there 4 wheelers, me personally, I like to fuel up on coffee on my way into the area I will be hunting and I would have a hard time doing that from a 4 wheeler.
My point in all my rambling is that we followed the restrictions that were in place. we didn't see anybody else break them either.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Ten, Remember what it was like before ATVs were invented? Did that stop people from hunting?

Yes, anything reasonable that would make violaters easier to identify would probably result in easier law enfocement. I'm surprised you are resisting that, but I can see you might have some kinda agenda about being able to road hunt off your ATV all day.

I'm not going to waste any more time answering all your questions. And I'm going to keep working for ATV restrictions. If you don't like that maybe you'll be able to outwork me and prevent more restrictions. Good luck.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-27-2003 10:59: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Ten Bears]

And my point(using the deductive reasoning that I've learned here) is, setting hunting seasons, legal shooting hours, and methods of take hasn't stopped poaching, so we need to work to stop hunting.

I have no agenda to ride my ATV all day. I believe you called me a "road hunter" (that's a bad name, didn't you sign in on the challenge? MARS, MARS

). My ATV has the same factory tires on it that it had the day I bought it over 10+ years ago (how often do you change the tires on your truck or car?). I think the odometer say 585 miles (not bad for 10+ years/<58 mile per year). Boy I ride alot, don't I? Dang thing dry rots faster than it wears out.

ITHACA, I remember that before ATV's there were old Willys jeeps and International Scouts on every ridge, wash, or draw they could drive. Remember any of that?

I'm not resisting making ATV's easier to identify, I want you to work it out (your idea, not mine) to a workable point. You want bigger license plates, you figure out how. I'm just saying that right now I pay more per year to license my ATV for on and off road use then I do my truck (got one now Moosie). I have to buy a license plate for on road use, an off road sticker to ride the gated roads, and if I wanted to use the snow mobile paths, I'd have to buy that sticker too. You tell me where ATV riders aren't paying for use.

There are over 35,000 registered ATV's in the state of Idaho (and increasing). That means that the ATV riders contribute over $250,000 (and increasing) to the state ATV fund for trail improvements and grants and such. What do you contribute?

I don't have a personal agenda, I'm just not self righteous. I think we are going to be hunters, we need to work as hunters.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-26-2003 15:55: Message edited by: Ten Bears ]</font>

 

[Lostagain]

TEN== you have no hope to have a moderate outcome to the problem. The moderate folks that want a piece for everyone will concede certain thing to the extremes, the extremes then take it and don't concede anything.
The moderates lose out everytime b/c they wanted a bit of each but the extremes want it all. When the moderate folks stall or won't concede certain things, the extreme say "fine, we'll do it our way ourselves!"
As a moderate, you need to pick the lesser of the two evil extremes and go with them, or you'll lose out everything to the other extreme.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Lost, I don't agree. The extremes balance each other out and give the moderates room to negotiate. If we didn't have somebody balancing out the "Wise Use" crowd and the resource extraction industry we'd be in big trouble. In fact, that's one reason environmental groups got started. They certainly didn't start this whole battle, they got involved because of the abuses.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-26-2003 10:03: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Michaelr]

this thread needs to.....R.I.P.

 

[MarlandS]

Well well well I have to put on my MOD hat and make a ruling... while it wasn't a direct attack there was the implication ... hmmmmm what to do.... oh yeah, go back to the personale responsibility clause. Ten was obviously offended by the implication, Ithaca, would you care to rephrase or edit out the offending line and note the sensitivity that some have towards implications of illegal or immoral actions?

Does this request satisfy both parties involved? (we can do things by committee as long as it gets done

 

[Ithaca 37]

Sure, no problem. I may be mistaken about him having "some kinda agenda about being able to road hunt off your ATV all day.".

He probably doesn't want to hunt road hunt off it all day.

 

[Lostagain]

Ten, I see austin has made up her mind as the USFS is using the maps from 88 for roads closures.

Since this has been a "waste" of time I won't bother to be back.

 

[Ten Bears]

LOST, give me some more information. Which set of maps was that, and over which forest?

ITHACA, I remember more about the time before ATV's, I remember Rokon 2 wheel drive motorcycles, dirt bikes on every trail, and fat tired trail boss tote goats. Is that enough remembering? I see fewer jeeps (still hate the mudders in the river bottomsand meadows), hardly ever see a Rokon these days, dirtbikes are fewer around here, and the last trail boss I saw was in pieces.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ten, Remember what it was like before ATVs were invented? Did that stop people from hunting?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In those days there were fewer hunters, most guys camped in tents, and elk season lasted through November. There was no pavement up the Coeur d' Alene river past Pritchard, nor past Avery on the St. Joe, and the roads weren't plowed above the paved portion either. What else do you want to know? People hunted, but there were vehicles in the woods.

I will say that your refusal to remove the accuasation about me wanting to be a "road hunter", may be based in you own repressed desires for some form of vehicular satisfaction that you fear is, enjoyed by others, but would not be socially accepted by your current sphere of influence. Therefore you are violently striking out against the group that you are inwardly envious of.

Dr. MULE, your analysis please.

 

[Ithaca 37]

I thought I answered Marland on the road hunter comment, but I'll go back to the original post.

I went back and added "might".

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-27-2003 11:00: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>