BuzzH
Well-known member
Lets see Brudno...you think for yourself, it just happens to be the same thing that the majority thinks.
Sweet....
Sweet....
HR 509, 249, wolf bills
- Thread starter BuzzH
- Start date
Lol, so if Im not in the minority, I must be a sheep? Your logic fails.
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tjones
Guest
Brudno you are johnny come lately to this topic. It has been hashed and re hashed on this and every outdoor forum on the net. Do a search and you will see how wrong you are. Ohh BTW if you are hanging your hat on Denny you don't know the man, do a search and see how many bills he introduced and actually made it.
Boating on Flathead with Denny is also something to avoid.
Boating on Flathead with Denny is also something to avoid.
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Yep, this is the only forum out there, and I'm new to this...I guess this is where, I have post count seniority on you, which means I'm right and your not...Does that really work for you on anybody?
Brudno - I don't think anyone is in the minority for thinking wolves need to be managed. I would suspect that is unanimous on this site. We are all on the same page as it relates to that - you, me, and all the other members.
Manner to accomplish that seems to be the discussion.
I grew up in Koochiching County, Minnesota. Ground Zero for wolves in the Upper Midwest. I left there at age twenty, but still go back home every year.
It amazes me how little effort the Upper Midwest states have put forth in taking control of their own destiny. Example would be the legislation recently introduced in the Senate, The American Big Game and Livestock Protection Act.
I am not saying what odds it has of success, or if it is the right way to go about it, but one thing is very obvious. The complete bail out by Midwestern Congressional delegates to do anything about wolves. Look at this list of sponsors of the bill being discussed here.
Orrin Hatch (Utah)
John Barrasso (Wyo.)
Mike Crapo (Idaho)
Michael Enzi (Wyo.)
Jon Kyl (Ariz.)
Mike Lee (Utah)
John McCain (Ariz.)
James Risch (Idaho)
So, I am going to ask this. What is being done in the Upper Midwest with regards to wolves? What is being done in the Upper Midwest to get legislators involved in the wolf issue?
The bill sponsored by the Senators above may or may not be the answer. The Baucus-Tester bill, introduced in December, may or may not have been the answer. But, all of those bills would have a better chance if hunters from the Upper Midwest were more active in the process.
The bills in question may or may not end up with state control of wolves, the goal of every person posting here. We need all hands on deck as it relates to getting state control. Can you get guys in your state to be more active on the issue?
Whether this bill passes or not, none of us benefit by making wolves a Republican or Democrat issue. None of us benefit by standing idly by. Any action, whether hounding your legislators about this bill, other bills, having them weigh in on the process of the USFWS, or the way the Rocky Mountain wolf decisions have allowed two states (MT and ID) to be held hostage, all of it is helpful and appreciated.
Your comments here are welcome and appreciated. As you probably have realized, wolves are a big deal to guys on this site and out west, as many of them have had their shoulder to the wheel for many years, making them very passionate about it.
Manner to accomplish that seems to be the discussion.
I grew up in Koochiching County, Minnesota. Ground Zero for wolves in the Upper Midwest. I left there at age twenty, but still go back home every year.
It amazes me how little effort the Upper Midwest states have put forth in taking control of their own destiny. Example would be the legislation recently introduced in the Senate, The American Big Game and Livestock Protection Act.
I am not saying what odds it has of success, or if it is the right way to go about it, but one thing is very obvious. The complete bail out by Midwestern Congressional delegates to do anything about wolves. Look at this list of sponsors of the bill being discussed here.
Orrin Hatch (Utah)
John Barrasso (Wyo.)
Mike Crapo (Idaho)
Michael Enzi (Wyo.)
Jon Kyl (Ariz.)
Mike Lee (Utah)
John McCain (Ariz.)
James Risch (Idaho)
So, I am going to ask this. What is being done in the Upper Midwest with regards to wolves? What is being done in the Upper Midwest to get legislators involved in the wolf issue?
The bill sponsored by the Senators above may or may not be the answer. The Baucus-Tester bill, introduced in December, may or may not have been the answer. But, all of those bills would have a better chance if hunters from the Upper Midwest were more active in the process.
The bills in question may or may not end up with state control of wolves, the goal of every person posting here. We need all hands on deck as it relates to getting state control. Can you get guys in your state to be more active on the issue?
Whether this bill passes or not, none of us benefit by making wolves a Republican or Democrat issue. None of us benefit by standing idly by. Any action, whether hounding your legislators about this bill, other bills, having them weigh in on the process of the USFWS, or the way the Rocky Mountain wolf decisions have allowed two states (MT and ID) to be held hostage, all of it is helpful and appreciated.
Your comments here are welcome and appreciated. As you probably have realized, wolves are a big deal to guys on this site and out west, as many of them have had their shoulder to the wheel for many years, making them very passionate about it.
Not somthing I'm proud of I was hoping to see our newest Senator on there, hopefully with more contact we will. It is sameful the absense of politicans in the Great Lakes, hopefully we were heard. I'm afraid the Economy and other issues, CWD, deer harvest, Earn a Buck, etc. dont overshadow the work that needs to be done in regards to wolves in the Wi.
I'm not here to go against the grain, call people out, and argue, but if I'm belittled and thought to be a sheep for my views on wolves, then so be it. Thats not my choice, but I will not change my opinion on what needs be done, just to fit in here from pressure by Buzz. While wolves run throught my state threatening one of the greatest states for big whitetail's in the midwest
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Thanks for posting that, I'm familiar with that, but I dont have much faith in that. Knowing it will be tied up in court, and they still want at least 5 years to study wolves from the time of delisting in Wisconsin. I'm not hopefully that, that will be enough to protect whats left of our once great whitetail population.
Thanks for that link, Ben. I would be interested to know the mix of comments from hunters and hunter organizations.
Will they publish how many comments were received and a summary of those comments?
I just read it and did not notice with any final decisions will be made. Any time table that you are aware of?
Heres another good read Randy.
http://outdoornews.com/wisconsin/news/article_4263ef84-1e59-11e0-94fd-001cc4c03286.html
Heres a quote from there regarding your question
"A new delisting proposal for the wolves is planned for publication by April, and the USFWS hopes to wrap up the process by the end of 2011. In its press release, the USFWS noted that, "Wolves continue to exceed recovery goals and are no longer threatened with extinction."
"Twice in the past four years wolves have been removed from the endangered species list in the Midwest, only to be listed again by the courts. This has made it nearly impossible for the state to deal effectively with wolf predation of livestock and other animals."
Final decision within 12 months. You can get the comments submitted generally by either asking the USFWS or in some extreme cases, submitting a FOIA request.
Interestingly, the service recinded the 2009 rule due to error on their part
From folks in the know, the new rule should be fairly straight forward, provided the service doesn't bung it up again. Sure folks will sue, but if the rule is written correctly, and all states have approved management plans within the core population area (which they do, IIRC), then it should be a solid win.
From the above link:
The 5 year requirement is in the ESA. Stick to your plan, and you have no problem. Fall below the recovered population, and you get a review.
it ain't rocket surgery.
mdunc8
Well-known member
Even if they are delisted, none of the midwestern states have even begun to develop harvest regulations. I don't remember which state, but one wouldn't even consider it until five years after delisting occurs. There is specific mention of ecotourism, so you've got that going for you.
I don't have any experience developing these management plans, but there's a lot of vague wording like "monitoring" and "evaluating" throughout the documents. Your biologists and managers have had quite a while to monitor and evaluate these critters and should have some clear and concise ideas for management options at this point in the game. I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a wolf, but I'm all for proper management (by states) and the lack of definitive management plans worries even me. I can only imagine how folks who don't want a single one shot feel about these documents.
I don't have any experience developing these management plans, but there's a lot of vague wording like "monitoring" and "evaluating" throughout the documents. Your biologists and managers have had quite a while to monitor and evaluate these critters and should have some clear and concise ideas for management options at this point in the game. I don't think I'd ever pull the trigger on a wolf, but I'm all for proper management (by states) and the lack of definitive management plans worries even me. I can only imagine how folks who don't want a single one shot feel about these documents.
drahthaar
Active member
Brudno, this is the best all around hunting forum, bar none, on the internet. And let me tell you, nobody gives a rats ass what your opinion is, that is the great thing about this forum. You just seem to have some insecurity issues with yourself and your opinion, as you keep mentioning how this forum is in the minority of all the other forums. Again, nobody on this forum gives a rip about being a "minority", I promise you. You just happen to be butting heads with the absolute most patient and persistent man on the internet who for some reason wants you to try to see the other side of an issue. Your side is obvious to everyone already as it has been told ad nauseum on every bar stool from the 49th parallel to the Rio Grande, and has also been pointed out, has been discussed here many times.
If you really want to see what these guys are about, make sure you're around in Sept, Oct, and Nov. Because its unreal what these guys seem to pack out of these woods filled with all these wolves. I live in aw, and try to learn as much as I can.
If you really want to see what these guys are about, make sure you're around in Sept, Oct, and Nov. Because its unreal what these guys seem to pack out of these woods filled with all these wolves. I live in aw, and try to learn as much as I can.
We probably dont have 5 years in most areas. Hunter recruitment continues to drop. No deer and only wolf sign and sightings have many people in northern WI quiting for good. Follow that with the plan in the southern part of the state to elminate all the deer, for stop the spread of CWD, which so far has not had the intended goal and has only managed to slash the deer herd in half and giving even more hunters reason to quit. And a failed EAB system which required every hunter shoot anterless deer to earn a buck tag. This state is in sorry shape. I've never peformed rocket surgery, nor have I met a rocket surgeon, but a hunch tells me they wouldnt touch this with a 10 foot stick.
Cool for you, I dont see where I ever jumped up and down and said hey everybody come listen to what I have to say. Insecurity? Maybe I'll start with some baseless insults, of my own. But hey I'll choose to be the bigger man. If this forum cant handle any opinion other than Buzz's and the MWF thats fine. Again, no skin of my nose, I read what you guys think, I think its optimistic at best. I merely point out the other things, because I beleive it funny that somehow some here not all, think I'm some sort of white rhino. After all how dare I have a different opinion. "Lets attack him, call him a sheep, fool, dumb, insecure" Go on give me your best shot. I dont shy away from controversy or my convictions nor do I expect anyone one of you to either.
TOM IN TENNESSEE
New member
I sure hope they dont end run the ESA....me and San Fran Nan want the Salt Water Marsh Mouse protected and the Elk and Deer on the Island erradicated so the endangered moss can live!
And dont fprget to protect our Cedar Glades and yellow pitcher plant along with the snail darter here in TN!
And the Elephants in Botswana!
And dont fprget to protect our Cedar Glades and yellow pitcher plant along with the snail darter here in TN!
And the Elephants in Botswana!
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tjones
Guest
I always get a kick out of the statements that "all the game is gone and there is only wolves left". If the game is gone how do the wolves continue to grow in number with nothing to eat?
No your right, the shear number of people who longer hunt, Northern WI, are all wrong. They're tummies must of hurt.
I can go out and get nothing see nothing, but I'll try harder the next think my plan and be better for it. Not all hunters are like us. Alot of people deer season is family tradition or right of passage. Casual hunters, first time hunters, and young hunters. You think they wanna hit the woods again after not seeing anything at all over an entire weekend? This isnt my presumption, we are loosing hunter because of the wolves, over estimation of herd population, EAB, CWD, and the WDNR's unrealistically low, herd goal. Its a sad thing to see people who hunted for years since they were kids decide no longer hunt because they no longer see deer. I cant blame them. Not everyone has the passion and resilience for the outdoors that some of us do, we forget that somtimes.
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Brudno - what you have mentioned is the same as I have heard from friends in Michigan, Minnesota, New York, PA, and other states, as it relates to shrinking hunting numbers. Disturbing.
Do you have any thoughts about what can be done to change that?
Do you have any active hunter organizations? I have been told that WI once had the strongest bowhunter organization in the country. Is that no longer the case?
I know that is a side track to this wolf bill discussion, but what you mention is a repeating story. That concerns me when it comes from states with the hunter numbers of the Midwest.
It is often blamed on wolves. You have provided more causes than most I have listened to. Do you think wolves are being used as the easier scapegoat by some hunters who have grown frustrated by the process of change in those states?
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