How tight a group?

[Seamaster]

On internet boards almost all rifles shoot 1/2" groups. I saw a fellow at the range one day shoot ten groups that were somewhere around 1 1/2"- 2" on the average, but had one that was smaller. He cut out and saved the small group for display purposes, and was later telling people at the club that he had a 1/2" rifle.

 

[Redmt]

My rifles shoot better everytime I tell the story.

 

[TimeOnTarget]

I personally want .5MOA out of my rifles. If I cant achieve that, down the road it goes. There's way to many rifles out there that will shoot .5 MOA to be holding on to ones that wont. That said, a good amount of my rifles have had some work done to them or are custom.

I do have some rifles with sentimental value that are not .5 rifles or even close to it.

 

[manitou1]

Personally, I won't keep a rifle if it won't consistently group 1/2" or better. There are too many good rifles out there so I see no reason to settle on a turd.

But that is just me and for my needs. Depends on what a person is willing to tolerate, what their shooting proficiency is and what their intended max range is.

As a youngster I killed a lot of game with 1"- 1 1/4" rifles.

 

[Redman]

I think that extra tight groups from the bench are overrated and breed confidence that can be completely unfounded in real life hunting situations. I would not hesitate to hunt with a 1 and 1/4 inch rifle.

It is a personal thing as with most of what we do. I hand load and enjoy finding the "one" that shoots the best. Start at the bench. Practice from a pack, trekking poles, spotting scope mounted on a tripod in all sorts of weather, positions, angles and distance. I don't care for guns that won't shoot MOA without having to mess with them. My Kimber Montana I really had to mess with loads before I could get MOA. I about sent it down the road...and may yet just do that.

 

[Scott85]

Growing up if you could hit a pie plate at 100 yards 3 times you were good to go.

 

[MTTW]

In a hunting situation, the first shot matters. The rest of your group is you trying to play catch-up.

When I was a kid, we used to go to turkey shoots in the area. You all put 1 dollar in the pot and got 1 shot. Closest to the x won the frozen, pretty small turkey. You could win a lot of turkeys with a gun that wouldn't shoot internet worthy groups. They used to hang a 6-inch balloon at 500 yards and it would usually be broken by the same guy shooting a wood stocked .270 hunting rifle that won damn few turkeys.
Of course, today everyone is capable of 500-yard shots in field conditions. Easy peasy.

 

[BuzzH]

Kidding, but I won't shoot an animal at a range that I get greater than 3" groups with, which is almost always less than 400 yds.

Yet an archery hunter hits a paper plate every time and they're good to go...and arrows are a lot less forgiving than a bullet.

Never have connected those dots.

 

[nhenry]

I just like to hit what I'm aiming at. That being said, if my custom 280AI hadn't been a half MOA gun, I would have been a little disappointed.

 

[BuzzH]

I like accurate rifles as much as the next guy, but I'm pretty darn effective with a rifle that shoots an honest inch or maybe even a bit more than that.

I mean, if you're head shooting grouse at 100 yards, yeah, you need sub-moa. I don't hunt grouse with a big-game rifle much, and never at 100+ yards.

I hunt deer, elk, pronghorn, sheep, moose...that kind of thing.

So, if you're rifle can shoot MOA at 600 yards, that's a 6 inch group and there should be NO problem whacking an elk, deer, or even pronghorn at that distance. The trouble is, I don't believe most hunters shoot as well as their rifles, by a long shot (pun there). They can't hold their chit together when it comes to killing game. They don't try to get closer and only remember the one perfect day they shot that 6" group at 600 yards, think they can do the same on game, and then blow a leg off, shoot something in the guts/ass, etc.

I'm also not afraid to get within reasonable shooting range either and from experience know when I need to get closer. I don't forget about the less than stellar days I have at the range. I try to go to the range on days that are crap weather, windy, cold, snowing, raining. I usually shoot off my pack rather than a bench. Some of those days, I would not feel real confident past about 300 yards in a hunting situation. The wind in particular is a beast and I don't care how much I shoot in the wind, I don't always get it right.

I ain't as good as my rifles...neither are most other folks. Some just flat fall apart and can't hold it together on game. Ask the average guy to show you where the lungs, heart, liver, etc. are on a big-game animal...its no wonder they make "bad shots" if they're aiming where they "think" the vitals are.

All this toiling over having a rifle shoot sub-moa doesn't mean much. A hunter that understands shot placement, knows how to hunt, shoots a 1.5-2" rifle well in the field, is going to find a lot more success with a lot more regularity than a hunter that spends all their time trying to chase a 1/4" 100 yard group.

Seen it...

 

[mtmuley]

.5 MOA must be the gold standard. mtmuley

 

[brymoore]

My favorite rifle is 1 1/4 MOA on its best day. It’s more of a 1 1/2” gun. I’ve killed a ton of animals with it including elk out to 600 yards. Family members grab it when animals need to die. I can’t remember the last miss from it.

I might rebarrel it someday.

Isn’t the fun rumor that famed Marine Corps sniper Carlos Hathcock’s rifle was a 2” Winchester model 70 30-06?

 

[Bigjay73]

.5 MOA must be the gold standard. mtmuley

I'm thinking I need waders to wade through this thread

 

[TheJason]

The wind in particular is a beast and I don't care how much I shoot in the wind, I don't always get it right.

This times infinity

 

[TheJason]

Ask the average guy to show you where the lungs, heart, liver, etc. are on a big-game animal...its no wonder they make "bad shots" if they're aiming where they "think" the vitals are.

This times double infinity

 

[noharleyyet]

I got's'ta know the rifle can outperform me...so sub-minute with optimal range conditions reduces a crunch-time field checklist.

 

[Bigjay73]

My favorite rifle is 1 1/4 MOA on its best day. It’s more of a 1 1/2” gun. I’ve killed a ton of animals with it including elk out to 600 yards. Family members grab it when animals need to die. I can’t remember the last miss from it.

I might rebarrel it someday.

Isn’t the fun rumor that famed Marine Corps sniper Carlos Hathcock’s rifle was a 2” Winchester model 70 30-06?

Not a rumor

Hathcock generally used the standard sniper rifle: the Winchester Model 70 chambered for .30-06 Springfield cartridges, with the standard 8-power Unertl scope. On some occasions, however, he used a different weapon: the M2 Browning machine gun, on which he mounted an 8X Unertl scope, using a bracket made by metalworkers of the SeaBees. Hathcock made a number of kills with this weapon in excess of 1,000 yards, including his record for the longest confirmed kill at 2,500 yards (since surpassed).

He was a killer shot

 

[BuzzH]

Not a rumor

Hathcock generally used the standard sniper rifle: the Winchester Model 70 chambered for .30-06 Springfield cartridges, with the standard 8-power Unertl scope. On some occasions, however, he used a different weapon: the M2 Browning machine gun, on which he mounted an 8X Unertl scope, using a bracket made by metalworkers of the SeaBees. Hathcock made a number of kills with this weapon in excess of 1,000 yards, including his record for the longest confirmed kill at 2,500 yards (since surpassed).

He was a killer shot

He was the best hunter...and kept his cool. Also a very good shot as well, double trouble for those he didn't particularly care for.

 

[shrapnel]

I like accurate rifles as much as the next guy, but I'm pretty darn effective with a rifle that shoots an honest inch or maybe even a bit more than that.

All this toiling over having a rifle shoot sub-moa doesn't mean much. A hunter that understands shot placement, knows how to hunt, shoots a 1.5-2" rifle well in the field, is going to find a lot more success with a lot more regularity than a hunter that spends all their time trying to chase a 1/4" 100 yard group.

Seen it...

This is the real gold standard. You don't need a 1/4 inch gun to shoot big game and kill it. Weatherby guarantees 1 1/2 inches with factory guns and factory ammunition and many would say that's not good enough, even though they couldn't shoot the gun well enough to matter.

I have found it best to sight my rifle in at 100 yards and then shoot a target at 300 and have found that some rifles don't actually spread to the exact cone shape that people expect.

Another thing to consider is that a gun that does shoot 1 1/2 inches is still only 3/4 of an inch from the aiming point...

 

[RealMuddyboots]

I like simulating a hunt shot scenario. Its really hard to do. At least for me. Once my rifle or even bow is sighted in, I like to test my mental focus. I will go to range, set target whatever distance I might shoot an animal. Shoot off cross sticks, bipod or pack. One shot, that's it. Pack up go home. If killing shot go home feeling good. Non kill shot, analyze what caused it and self correct for next time at range. I believe it helps improve focus.

Bow much easier, walk into yard with one arrow, take shot at 3D wherever. One shot only helps increase focus for me.

However, gas prices may not be helpful to do this.