How important is it?

[slatebuilder]

Someone ask about bc?

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Someone ask about bc?


View attachment 312353

Had no idea Muley was talking about the BCs Matter (BCM) movement!

 

[Carl]

What was the issue? I've been thinking about using them this fall as well have seen enough negative issue with long necks before expanding that an ELD or those 106 TAPs might get the nod.

The wound channel was barely over caliber size, and I observed almost zero bloodshot. Maybe the “neck” of the wound buried the bulk of the damage inside the organs, but handling the lungs it didn’t look like it to me.

View attachment 312288
Can’t imagine what the issue was on a 500 lb animal

You’ve been looking at the wrong column this entire thread. Impact velocity, not energy, is what most correlates to wound channels, which is what most correlates to lethality. My experience this year was that 108 EH’s had a marginal (still fatal but not what anyone aims for) wound channel at 2100ish fps impact velocity, and 88 ELD’s made a decent one at 1900ish fps impact velocity. Per that mostly singular result, I’d have been better off with my 22 BR with optimized bullets.

I only saw ONE 108 EH wound at that velocity, and given the rest of the data I’ve seen around it, it may be a bad day at the office. I really mean that, I’ve seen a number of people with a pile of animals under that bullet.

But…being it’s my second iffy Berger result at the low end of impact velocity, and ELD’s have been solid in my experience, I’m not personally leaning that way for future hunting projectiles.

 

[mtmuley]

You’ve been looking at the wrong column this entire thread. Impact velocity, not energy, is what most correlates to wound channels

Hmmmm...... mtmuley

 

[jeff_gibbons]

Good info for LR steel target shooting.
Cant see much value for hunting.

 

[Doublecluck]

The wound channel was barely over caliber size, and I observed almost zero bloodshot. Maybe the “neck” of the wound buried the bulk of the damage inside the organs, but handling the lungs it didn’t look like it to me.



You’ve been looking at the wrong column this entire thread. Impact velocity, not energy, is what most correlates to wound channels, which is what most correlates to lethality. My experience this year was that 108 EH’s had a marginal (still fatal but not what anyone aims for) wound channel at 2100ish fps impact velocity, and 88 ELD’s made a decent one at 1900ish fps impact velocity. Per that mostly singular result, I’d have been better off with my 22 BR with optimized bullets.

I only saw ONE 108 EH wound at that velocity, and given the rest of the data I’ve seen around it, it may be a bad day at the office. I really mean that, I’ve seen a number of people with a pile of animals under that bullet.

But…being it’s my second iffy Berger result at the low end of impact velocity, and ELD’s have been solid in my experience, I’m not personally leaning that way for future hunting projectiles.

Right, because when people want to stop animals in their tracks trying to eat/kill them , elephants, bears, lions, Cape buffalo, they shoot very fast light bullets?


Impact velocity correlates to wound channels, impact energy, energy transfer, and the shock caused from it correlate to how the animal dies through that wound.

I’ve had plenty of less than desirable experiences with eldms at close range on elk. 180 Gr north of 2900 comes to mind.

If I had less than desirable experience with a 6 mm 108 at 2100 fps and around 1k ft lbs on an elk, I wouldn’t be looking for a different bullet , I would be looking at a different cartridge.

 

[Doublecluck]

Someone once said core lokts have killed more game than all the other bullets combined. Not sure how to prove it, but someone said it

Probably a marketing gimmick

“The reason they are so effective at dropping deer is because of the amount of energy they deposit. Core-Lokts typically transfer 75 percent of their kinetic energy within the first eight inches of penetration. This translates to massive tissue destruction as well as lots of shock to the animal’s system. Hit properly with a Core-Lokt, you can expect deer to drop. They might get up and run, but they won’t run far.”

 

[Bullbrl]

Right, because when people want to stop animals in their tracks trying to eat/kill them , elephants, bears, lions, Cape buffalo, they shoot very fast light bullets?


Impact velocity correlates to wound channels, impact energy, energy transfer, and the shock caused from it correlate to how the animal dies through that wound.

I’ve had plenty of less than desirable experiences with eldms at close range on elk. 180 Gr out of a 300 wm comes to mind.

If I had less than desirable experience with a 6 mm 108 at 2100 fps and around 1k ft lbs on an elk, I wouldn’t be looking for a different bullet , I would be looking at a different cartridge.

You’re shooting 180gr eldms out of a 300wm?

 

[Doublecluck]

You’re shooting 180gr eldms out of a 300wm?

Actually the 180’s were out of my 7rm, shot some out of my 300 as well, they were less than 200 more than 168’s. Probably 178’s? Been a few years. They were hammers out far, acted just like vlds around 300+ up close less than desirable.

 

[Salmonchaser]

look Muley, go google Shakira then Rosie O’Donnell and tell me it don’t matter.

Best analogy ever!

 

[Wind Gypsy]

Right, because when people want to stop animals in their tracks trying to eat/kill them , elephants, bears, lions, Cape buffalo, they shoot very fast light bullets?


Impact velocity correlates to wound channels, impact energy, energy transfer, and the shock caused from it correlate to how the animal dies through that wound.

I’ve had plenty of less than desirable experiences with eldms at close range on elk. 180 Gr north of 2900 comes to mind.

If I had less than desirable experience with a 6 mm 108 at 2100 fps and around 1k ft lbs on an elk, I wouldn’t be looking for a different bullet , I would be looking at a different cartridge.

You think a narrow wound channel from a bullet not disrupting meaningfully correlates more with a nominal bullet weight*velocity ^2 calculation than how a given bullet behaves (consistently or otherwise) at a given terminal velocity? Doesn’t seem to since he had better results with a lighter and slower 88 ELD.

How much energy would he need with a bullet behaving that way for it to be sufficient for a 500# animal? A 140 elite hunter at the same velocity would be approaching the 1500 ft-lb mark. Is that enough energy if the bullet doesn’t meaningfully disrupt?

 

[brockel]

Do bullet manufacturers give a minimum ftlbs of energy for bullet expansion or do they give a minimum velocity for bullet expansion?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Do bullet manufacturers give a minimum ftlbs of energy for bullet expansion or do they give a minimum velocity for bullet expansion?

Velocity.

With a given bullet construction, velocity determines the bullets terminal behavior (deformation, expansion, fragmenting) and thus energy transfer mechanisms. Different mechanisms have differing effectiveness at killing.

The energy available to transfer will control the volume of damage - within the same bullet type and at a similar velocity.

When you compare different bullet construction - you are looking at different wounding characteristics. Kind of why 70 fpe is a lot with a bow - it doesnt kill the same way.

 

[Ought Six]

Do bullet manufacturers give a minimum ftlbs of energy for bullet expansion or do they give a minimum velocity for bullet expansion?

Do you think they give velocity because it’s easier to measure than energy? They can correlate expansion to different velocities, and then the user could set up a chronograph at different ranges to verify they are meeting that velocity. I’m not sure how you would physically measure a bullet’s kinetic energy, only calculate it based off velocity and mass.

 

[brockel]

Velocity.

With a given bullet construction, velocity determines the bullets terminal behavior (deformation, expansion, fragmenting) and thus energy transfer mechanisms. Different mechanisms have differing effectiveness at killing.

The energy available to transfer will control the volume of damage - within the same bullet type and at a similar velocity.

When you compare different bullet construction - you are looking at different wounding characteristics. Kind of why 70 fpe is a lot with a bow - it doesnt kill the same way.

Two bullets with same construction 140 Berger vld hunting and a 210 Berger vld hunting. 140 berger shows a bigger wound channel at 2400fps impact and 1700ftlbs of energy than the 210 does with an impact velocity of 2100fps with ftlbs of energy if 2100ftlbs. Seen that more than once.

 

[brockel]

Do you think they give velocity because it’s easier to measure than energy? They can correlate expansion to different velocities, and then the user could set up a chronograph at different ranges to verify they are meeting that velocity. I’m not sure how you would physically measure a bullet’s kinetic energy, only calculate it based off velocity and mass.

I think they give velocity because energy means very little in the whole deal. Yes it takes energy to make a bullet expand but not near the thought people are putting into this.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Do you think they give velocity because it’s easier to measure than energy? They can correlate expansion to different velocities, and then the user could set up a chronograph at different ranges to

Attaining expansion velocity determines whether energy transfer happens. Energy is worthless without transfer.

Two bullets with same construction 140 Berger vld hunting and a 210 Berger vld hunting. 140 berger shows a bigger wound channel at 2400fps impact and 1700ftlbs of energy than the 210 does with an impact velocity of 2100fps with ftlbs of energy if 2100ftlbs. Seen that more than once.

Right. Different velocity. Different wounding. You are changing multiple variables - not just one.

Of those two at the same velocity - which creates more damage?

 

[brockel]

Of those two at the same velocity - which creates more damage?

So the velocity is the most important variable?

 

[Forkyfinder]

So the velocity is the most important variable?

It obviously drives the wounding mechanisms and bullet behavior.

 

[brockel]

It obviously drives the wounding mechanisms and bullet behavior.

So it’s more important than the energy number?