How important is it?

[Muleyfanatic]

Ballistic coefficient is important to me but not near as important as accuracy for the given bullet. BC is probably third in line as far as importance.
1 Accuracy out of given rifle
2 Bullet performance on game
3 Ballistic Coefficient
4 Bullet weight
5 Bullet velocity
I find that the BC plays the most important role in bucking the wind when my wind calculation or wind reading is incorrect.

 

[buffybr]

Missing piece to this is retained velocity (arguably more important than energy). Without enough velocity - the bullet can't expand - and can't transfer the energy into the tissue successfully.

You're an Engineer??? A bullet's Energy is determined by it's Velocity squared and it's weight. It's the bullet's Energy that makes it expand and causes tissue damage.

 

[FREAK]

@mtmuley, I can get behind the "if it aint broke don't fix it" mantra, as well as the unwavering love for the 300 win mag. As far as BC goes I'd argue it matters even more to the average rifleman than the above average shooter. I want every inch of benefit/confidence I can gain from 1. accuracy 2. terminal peformance and lastly BC of the bullet i'm using, because I know I'm an average shot. I've ranged stuff in front of or behind animals that have thrown off my range by 50-70 yards on a 3-400 yard shot.

Just my 2cents. I also think the distance argument is kind of false as well. If they had more sabot slugs when I was growing up deer hunting in the mid west i'd probably have a couple really nice whitetails. The traditional slugs are less accurate and drop an additional 5-6 inches at 150 yards. That's pretty significant in the mid west woods IMO.

 

[buffybr]

IMO energy matters about as much as what boots you are wearing for killing animals. A same weight and velocity fmj and ballistic tip are going to be at the same energy at some point in flight yet one is going to kill drastically better If you’ve ever done any killing with a high velocity 22 cal with a fragile bullet then you’d know why I think that. I’ve even seen a mule deer buck take a 35 grain bullet from a 204 ruger in the chest at 300 yards stumble 20 yards and tip right over. Ballistics calculator says that bullet at just over 400ft-lbs of energy.

The reason that the ballistic tip bullet kills drastically better than a fmj bullet is that the ballistic tip bullet expends most or all of it's energy inside the animal where a fmj bullet just zips through the animal and expends it's energy in the dirt on the other side of the animal.

Very often high velocity, fragile, small calilber bullets will "blow up" expending all of their energy in the shoulder muscle and bone of an animal and NOT reach the vitals deep inside the animal.

 

[Nick87]

Just my 2cents. I also think the distance argument is kind of false as well. If they had more sabot slugs when I was growing up deer hunting in the mid west i'd probably have a couple really nice whitetails.

Same, on the other side of the coin had those been around back when we were coming up we'd of had a lot less nice ones around..like now.

 

[brockel]

The reason that the ballistic tip bullet kills drastically better than a fmj bullet is that the ballistic tip bullet expends most or all of it's energy inside the animal where a fmj bullet just zips through the animal and expends it's energy in the dirt on the other side of the animal.

Very often high velocity, fragile, small calilber bullets will "blow up" expending all of their energy in the shoulder muscle and bone of an animal and NOT reach the vitals deep inside the animal.

See post #119. And unless you are talking a 40 grain vmax at 4000fps that doesn’t happen very often in my experience.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You're an Engineer??? A bullet's Energy is determined by it's Velocity squared and it's weight. It's the bullet's Energy that makes it expand and causes tissue damage.

A degree'd and licensed one... Velocity is the key to energy transfer for a given projectile. And the damage will be proportional to the energy transfered. I.e. a 3000 ft lb energy bullet that will reliably transfer all 3000 ft lbs of energy will cause more damage than 1000 ft lbs of energy transfered either from a bullet with 3000 ft lbs or 1000 ft lbs.

How much energy you actually NEED to kill something is certainly debatable and in my view a lot less than people think.

This is why bullet construction is so important - it defines the paramaters of energy transfer (frag/expansion) of the bullet.

 

[buffybr]

Slower speed and softer alloys limit lead "spread" from shot in bird breasts vs the lead "cloud" that results from high speed bullet impact. And we eat a lot less upland meat compared to big game (in years I get tags). But nonetheless, I get your point. It is a balance.

Most lead shot is alloyed to make it harder which reduces the deformation of the lead pellets for denser shot patterns and so the pellets retain their velocity for longer distances. The lead core of copper/core bullets us pure lead that is softer and conforms to the bullet shape better than alloyed lead would.

I have seen the lead "cloud" of bullets hitting steel but if there is any lead "cloud" in an animal's flesh I think that it would be contained in the bloodshot mush of the wound cavity, which I cut out and discard. I have recovered dozens of bullets from game animals most of them have a deformed tip or front half of the bullet and the back portion is intact.

 

[Forkyfinder]

You're an Engineer??? A bullet's Energy is determined by it's Velocity squared and it's weight. It's the bullet's Energy that makes it expand and causes tissue damage.

It's the bullet's VELOCITY and CONSTRUCTION that make it expand.

In your earlier scenario of say a Vmax or weak varmint bullet not expanding on bone/dense tissue on game - imagine if the bullet was going slower (slow enough to not "blow up"). It would expand less violently - and penetrate.

 

[brockel]

I.e. a 3000 ft lb energy bullet that will reliably transfer all 3000 ft lbs of energy will cause more damage than 1000 ft lbs of energy transfered either from a bullet with 3000 ft lbs or 1000 ft lbs.

Not my experience see post #119. That’s real life experience I’ve witnessed. In that instances bullet A transferred 3545ftlbs and bullet B transferred 1934ftlbs. Yet bullet B caused more damage.

Have seen this multiple times

 

[Doublecluck]

Or two cow elk shot side by side. One with a 200 grain accubond started at 3200 fps and one with a 140 grain Berger vld started at 2825fps. Both behind shoulder no major bones hit accubond caught on hide perfect mushroom on offside and Berger fragmentation against offside hide. Accubond cow ran 50 yards and tipped Berger cow went 10 yards maybe. Berger cow wound channel was quite a bit larger than the accubond cow. Accubond cow was hit with nearly double the energy of the Berger cow.

Right, one bullet expended a smaller part of its mass and left a singular wound channel and part (less) of its energy in the animal, the reaction of that was it bled out at a slower rate. The other bullet expended all of its mass and energy in to the animal and left multiple/larger wound channels. The reaction to that was a quicker incapacitation. The reaction to energy, (mass and velocity) matters via the wound.
Think of a drill, you take it drill a hole in your arm, now drop part of the weight of the drill on your arm observe how much blood comes out. Now take the same drill and imagine half way through your arm the drill bit fragments in all directions , then you drop more/all the weight of the drill on your arm. Which ones gonna kill you quicker?

Energy is killing via the animals reaction to it via the wound. The energy itself did not kill the animal, but it certainly mattered, which is why bc matters for retained velocity and energy.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Not my experience see post #119. That’s real life experience I’ve witnessed. In that instances bullet A transferred 3545ftlbs and bullet B transferred 1934ftlbs. Yet bullet B caused more damage.

Have seen this multiple times

Right - but imagine a linear transfer of energy compared to a non-linear idealized in the tissue that matters (vital organs after a few inches of penetration) transfer of energy.

Right, one bullet expended a smaller part of its mass and left a singular wound channel and part (less) of its energy in the animal, the reaction of that was it bled out at a slower rate. The other bullet expended all of its mass and energy in to the animal and left multiple/larger wound channels. The reaction to that was a quicker incapacitation. The reaction to energy, (mass and velocity) matters via the wound.
Think of a drill, you take it drill a hole in your arm, now drop part of the weight of the drill on your arm observe how much blood comes out. Now take the same drill and imagine half way through your arm the drill bit fragments in all directions , then you drop more/all the weight of the drill on your arm. Which ones gonna mil you quicker?

Energy is killing via the animals reaction to it via the wound. The energy itself did not kill the animal, but it certainly mattered, which is why bc matters for retained velocity and energy.

Exactly - how and where the energy gets transferred also matters. Again see the link I posted - explains in more detail than I can.

Effective Game Killing

Effective game killing- How bullets kill and where to aim to ensure a fast clean kill.

www.ballisticstudies.com

 

[Nick87]

Man, I guess it's time to step up from core lokt's.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Man, I guess it's time to step up from core lokt's.

They work too! Just know your bullets performance (min and max velocity) and stay within those parameters.

 

[brockel]

Man, I guess it's time to step up from core lokt's.

You use to be able to buy them in bulk bags to handload. Killed a lot things with them. Had an H&R single shot 7mm-08 that I think I turned into a smooth bore with 140 grain corelokts. I shot a TON of jackrabbits through the summers with that.

 

[Nick87]

They work too! Just know your bullets performance (min and max velocity) and stay within those parameters.

I know they work.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I know they work.

No need to change then.

This is like a variety of topics when it comes to hunting gear, clothes, firearms etc.

A lot of new stuff works "better" is it enough to matter for most people in most situtations? Doubt it.

You use to be able to buy them in bulk bags to handload. Killed a lot things with them. Had an H&R single shot 7mm-08 that I think I turned into a smooth bore with 140 grain corelokts. I shot a TON of jackrabbits through the summers with that.

Killed my first elk and antelope with 165 non boat tail "bad bc" core lokts.

 

[Nick87]

A lot of new stuff works "better" is it enough to matter for most people in most situtations? Doubt it.

That's what I was getting at you can only over think something so much, sooner or later your more wound up in that than you are the hunting itself. I'm not trying to belittle the significance of bc either.

 

[barefoothick69]

Definitely depends on what you're hunting and at what distance. need more info for better answers

 

[buffybr]

A degree'd and licensed one... Velocity is the key to energy transfer for a given projectile. And the damage will be proportional to the energy transfered. I.e. a 3000 ft lb energy bullet that will reliably transfer all 3000 ft lbs of energy will cause more damage than 1000 ft lbs of energy transfered either from a bullet with 3000 ft lbs or 1000 ft lbs.

How much energy you actually NEED to kill something is certainly debatable and in my view a lot less than people think.

This is why bullet construction is so important - it defines the paramaters of energy transfer (frag/expansion) of the bullet.

I agree, speed kills. And for the same weight bullet, the one traveling at the higher velocity will have more energy to transfer, and an expanding bullet will transfer more energy than a fmj bullet.

Colorado hunting regs specify that a pistol bullet must have at least 500 foot-pounds of energy to be legal for hunting black bears. I killed my first Montana black bear with a 220 gr cast lead bullet from my .45 acp that has just a little over 300 f-p of energy, and he was DRT with one bullet.

Many states do not allow big game hunting with .22 caliber bullets. Montana does not have any caliber restrictions, and I have a number of friends that have made one shot kills on BG animals up to and including elk and buffalo with their .22-250 rifles. I have killed deer and antelope with my .22-250, and a number of mule and whitetail does with a .22 LR (without any woundings or lost animals).