Have Any of You Observed a Wildlife Law Violation ? What Did you Do ?

[The Hedgehog]

I heard gunfire from an adjacent property whose owner had told me that he hated hunters and would never allow hunting. I called the GW. Somehow or another they had in fact managed to get permission BUT they were cited for hunting without a license, shooting across a county road, shooting cranes without a stamp, being over limit, shooting at migratory birds with a rifle, and shooting at migratory birds with a gun that would hold more than three shots.

They had been shooting at cranes in the air with an AK as they flew over a building that abutted a county road.

Wow. That sounds like something my Mom would do.

I love my Mom.

From an instant msg session.. MOM: You need to bring the assault rifle home when you come. That is so much fun to shoot gofers with them. Pat has one and it just blows them apart. We were killing them and seagulls. Sent at 3:27 PM on Monday me: you were shooting seagulls? MOM: Yes we...

www.hunttalk.com

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Yeah there's more to the story. There were 3 people that showed up, ranch employee, warden, and biologist. Local warden was on vacation, so another had to show up from farther away. There were some differences of opinions/personalities on some things that day, to say the least and I didn't hide my opinion that a bull elk that bled about a 1/2 cup total in 4 hours and didn't show any signs of being hit, bleeding, or limping, didn't need to be chased down and killed because he "wouldn't make the winter." Thankfully the bull ran up a hill, got on a huge flat and likely sprinted a mile, crossed a highway, then probably another mile into some breaks to hide from the local biologist that thought he needed to "finish it off". When I had my rifle in my hands and the bull initially jumped out and stood there looking at us before taking off one last time, nobody said a word about shooting it. They didn't make that call until finding a little blood. That ranch has a "zero tolerance" policy on any hunting related violations. Bottom line is I shot the bull and it was standing on private. I knew when I made the phone call I'd be getting a ticket and losing a license that took almost 20 years to draw. I'm lucky I still got out of there with my license. I thought the bull was laying in there dead and there wasn't really any other option to call the G&F.

On a positive note, I spent some time on the phone recently with some local wardens here on licensing (residency) questions/issues and they were super nice and helpful.

By chance, did this happen on Nov 22nd? I was traveling to Billings for a meeting and spent some time along the way glassing this unit and saw from a distance what looked like a gathering you are describing.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I can’t help but wonder if actually having some sort of penalty for that extra elk when you kinda sort of but not really turned yourself in for, if it would have convinced you to be more careful with your shooting and not just taught you how to sneak out extra critters

Again, taking things out of context. So childish. Nearly dark and already hit the spike once. Second shot was broadside in the boiler room. I didn't see the cow on other side of him and even if I had, I'm not sure it would have made a difference. Snow was almost gone and dark in a few minutes. I had to get him down ASAP or he would be lost. He didn't go twenty yards but I still needed flashlight to find him. I literally stepped on the cow walking out. Turns out he was hit well first shot but not well enough to drop him. I doubt he would have gone much further when I found him standing for second shot but never know. I'm sure some of you perfect hunters would have handled it differently ... as in lost the bull.

 

[The Hedgehog]

By chance, did this happen on Nov 22nd? I was traveling to Billings for a meeting and spent some time along the way glassing this unit and saw from a distance what looked like a gathering you are describing.

Nope, it was on Veteran's Day.

 

[ImBillT]

Again, taking things out of context. So childish. Nearly dark and already hit the spike once. Second shot was broadside in the boiler room. I didn't see the cow on other side of him and even if I had, I'm not sure it would have made a difference. Snow was almost gone and dark in a few minutes. I had to get him down ASAP or he would be lost. He didn't go twenty yards but I still needed flashlight to find him. I literally stepped on the cow walking out. Turns out he was hit well first shot but not well enough to drop him. I doubt he would have gone much further when I found him standing for second shot but never know. I'm sure some of you perfect hunters would have handled it differently ... as in lost the bull.

I may have interpreted incorrectly, but I think his point may have been that ticketing you for an honest mistake would send the wrong message.

 

[Gerald Martin]

Again, taking things out of context. So childish. Nearly dark and already hit the spike once. Second shot was broadside in the boiler room. I didn't see the cow on other side of him and even if I had, I'm not sure it would have made a difference. Snow was almost gone and dark in a few minutes. I had to get him down ASAP or he would be lost. He didn't go twenty yards but I still needed flashlight to find him. I literally stepped on the cow walking out. Turns out he was hit well first shot but not well enough to drop him. I doubt he would have gone much further when I found him standing for second shot but never know. I'm sure some of you perfect hunters would have handled it differently ... as in lost the bull.

Did I understand you correctly that you didn’t salvage the cow? Just left it “for bird food”?

 

[TheTone]

I may have interpreted incorrectly, but I think his point may have been that ticketing you for an honest mistake would send the wrong message.

My thoughts were that having a penalty might lead to a change in future behavior. At the end of the day that’s a hope for enforcement activity. It seems to me that in this case overlimits (intentional or not) have just become something to hide and sneak home with no consequences

 

[ImBillT]

Did I understand you correctly that you didn’t salvage the cow? Just left it “for bird food”?

If he did, my opinion is that nothing is wasted in nature. The closest thing to waste would be for the bones to wind up in the landfill and the meat to be pooped into a toilet when it ends up in a sewer or septic system. If the elk stayed in the forest it came from, all of its nitrogen and minerals would be returned to the forest it came from. If in the process of being returned to the forest, it feeds some wolves or a bear, well that’s an elk they don’t have to kill, and if not, that’ll be a very fertile patch of ground in the future.

I don’t condone shooting game for fun, or just taking heads or backstraps, but it’s not because nature is damaged when meat is left behind in way that it would not be damaged if the meat was utilized by a human instead of a plant or animal.

That said, if someone needed the meat, it would be nice if they had been able to have it.

 

[ImBillT]

My thoughts were that having a penalty might lead to a change in future behavior. At the end of the day that’s a hope for enforcement activity. It seems to me that in this case overlimits (intentional or not) have just become something to hide and sneak home with no consequences

Hmmm... my thoughts were that penalizing him for self-reporting an honest mistake would be more likely to lead to sneaking and hiding in the future.

 

[OntarioHunter]

I may have interpreted incorrectly, but I think his point may have been that ticketing you for an honest mistake would send the wrong message.

Correct. However I think more important to understanding what transpired was the historical context. At that time the wardens were seeing a lot of their discretionary authority disappearing. Maybe some good reasons ... and some not so good. And little doubt they resented it. Formerly the resource was primarily a food source for locals. By the late seventies the influx of transplants started (Robert Redford's "River Runs Through It" eventually turned emigration to The Last Best Place into a stampede) and management attitudes towards the resource changed. Became more important to cultivate trophies. There was always the potential for abuse of discretion but I think the new foreigners in management blew it out of proportion. That's essentially what the game warden was saying in 1981. "Five years ago I'd say bring it in and we'll take care of it. Not now." Incidentally, he wasn't just a game warden. He was a district manager.

 

[cacklercrazy]

I have read with interest the comments Hunt Talkers make after reading posted articles regarding poachers being caught. Mostly I note anger and disgust toward the offender. Rightfully so. But... how many of you folks have observed a violation of wildlife regulations while in the field ? What did you do : 1) Nothing 2) Call the authorities 3) Call the authorities and provide a written statement 4) Call the authorities, provide a written statement, and testify in court (these folks are my absolute heroes !!!).

Yes and call F and G only to hear do you have proof. Watch a couple guys try to shoot a buck with a rifle durning archery. Worse yet they did it while one of my partners was stocking in for a shot. Took license plate down and called it in, but they did nothing.

 

[appaloosa]

Whats the violation?

"...making a reasonable effort shall include a person physically going to the nearest location where the animal was when the person attempted to take the game animal, in order to search for any sign the game animal was wounded or killed"

 

[OntarioHunter]

If he did, my opinion is that nothing is wasted in nature. The closest thing to waste would be for the bones to wind up in the landfill and the meat to be pooped into a toilet when it ends up in a sewer or septic system. If the elk stayed in the forest it came from, all of its nitrogen and minerals would be returned to the forest it came from. If in the process of being returned to the forest, it feeds some wolves or a bear, well that’s an elk they don’t have to kill, and if not, that’ll be a very fertile patch of ground in the future.

I don’t condone shooting game for fun, or just taking heads or backstraps, but it’s not because nature is damaged when meat is left behind in way that it would not be damaged if the meat was utilized by a human instead of a plant or animal.

That said, if someone needed the meat, it would be nice if they had been able to have it.

No. Read the story. I did not leave it for bird food as he suggested. And I told him I couldn't do that. That's when tongue in cheek he asked where I shot it. I often wonder if he didn't send someone "up the Middle Fork" just to give himself an out in case I got caught fetching the cow and tried to rat on him. I was pretty sure that's what that was about. For those who don't know, up the Middle Fork of the Flathead drainage encompasses several thousand square miles. It is worth noting that he did not ask me to be more specific. Because he didn't want me to be more specific.

 

[44hunter45]

Did the same thing for an idiot in Pennsylvania who uploaded lots of evidence bragging about his "first kills" as a new "hunter." He killed a bunch of chickadees with a pellet gun. Never heard from PGC about it though.

Having been a young kid with a Sheridan Blue Streak pellet rifle, I'm glad there was no YouTube in the 1960's. I killed more birds than a feral cat. The kid did grow into an ethical hunter.

A phrase my grandfather used to use comes to mind, some all along the lines of “crazier than a shit house rat”.

Crazier than campfire poop burner.

Back to the OP. -

I have my local CO (warden) in my contact lists in both my mobile phones, as well as the Idaho CAP (Citizens Against Poaching) number.
I send text, photos, videos, and OnX pins to the CO every year.

Some of my reports have resulted in citations and gone to court. Certainly not all, I don't know. I'm not the CO, he is. I just report, he is trained to make the judgement calls. Sometimes we will discuss the circumstances of what I found and what evidence I have. Every report is different. I also do everything I can to protect whatever evidence there is on the scene if he says he is coming out. That means not walking all over it. But also photoing it or protecting it if the weather threatens to ruin it.

I have self reported - Like the time I tipped over two turkeys. This was before the easy cell phone days. I tagged the targeted bird, recovered both, and called the CO (who has since retired) when I got home. It was about a half hour after the incident. He had me gut the second bird and put it in my freezer until he could come by to pick it up. No citation, but I did get the obligatory speech about shot pattern spread and target isolation. It worked, as I have never dumped two turkeys since.

This same CO called me out once on a non-hunting whopper I had told. Never assume you are smarter than the CO, or your mother.

BTW - "Self Reporting", and "Anonymous" are grammatically incompatible terms. Self reporting is when you call and say, "This is Mark and I screwed up...". Anonymous means you want the incident to be reported, but you don't want the law or perpetrator to know who you are.

What I think is missing from this discussion is the need to have a relationship with your local CO. This gives you credence when you report, and grace when you screw up. (Provided you deserve it.) No LEOs on earth cover as much territory as game cops. They usually do it alone and they are dealing with armed folks a good part of the time. Part of being an ethical hunter is to be, in whatever way we can, part of the system that protects the game, human lives, and our reputation. This opinion has put me at odds with some of the local bubbas who think IDFG is right up there with "Those Damn Feds..." If the bubbas think of me as a narc, too bad.

If your CO knows you well enough to call you out on a whopper, you are the better for it.

I grew up in a meat party hunting family. I was unaware that we were poachers in every sense of the word. Until I went to Hunter's Ed I did not know there was another way. We raised beef, but still saw venison for food as a natural right. This leaves me skeptical of the, "just feeding the family" excuse. I have no sympathy for a guy who has a cell phone, an ATV, trail cameras, and $2K worth of ink on his body; but says he can't afford to feed his kids. My wife is feeding his kids every day down at the school district. In fact, during COVID, the school buses delivered those meals to the families.

Maybe a conviction will break this theoretical man's kids out of that cycle, maybe not. I know I can point his conviction out to my grand kids and explain a better way.

One more and I'm out. - How do we bring this around to breaking the cycle of poaching culture? If there had not been a group of Hunter's Ed instructors to teach me another way, I might still be shooting deer in the head with a .22 like we did in the 60's. I continue to keep becoming a certified instructor too low on my bucket list. That's on me. You can't judge me for being a game narc, but you can judge me for that.

 

[OldSnort]

Gotta respect that....and I would imagine that it cooled the flames for the remainder of the season.

I would have done the same thing, it's the ethical and honorable thing to do. How was the land owner handling the situation?

 

[OldSnort]

I totally agree on maintaining a relationship with your local CO, it is something I have done for over 50 years and it has paid lots of dividends.

 

[HSi-ESi]

I was in a big W area in SW MT, 2001 or so and witnessed some violation(s). I contacted the GW, asked him what he needed - and after describing the individual - the GW knew who he was (I had no idea). I wrote a letter describing everything I had witnessed, had it notarized and mailed it in.

Nothing every came out of the poaching incident, but the guy ended up serving prison time over an armed bank robbery.

 

[Slate]

I wasn’t about to turn myself in