H.R. 8828 introduced -Leghold and conibear traps

[Shangobango]

If this thread was full of opinions and responses like this I'd still happy support trapping as a use on our public lands. And maybe I'll let these responses sway me more than the GFY and your dog responses.

Can’t stand it.

So, if this thread was full of responses and opinions that you agree with regarding the tools trappers should use you would be happy to support trapping.

Trappers and some trapping associations have been all to happy to slowly let this way of life fade. Sometimes not so slowly.

Don’t piss down my back and tell me it’s raining.

Plenty of Darth Vaders on this thread.

“Resistance is futile”

Maybe, but it sure is fun.

 

[rwc101]

I might have to get into the game with the way my attempts at yote calling have been going.

 

[BrdHntr]

Soooo, as of now, it looks like absolutely no pro-trapper here has stepped up to say "I'll be 100% accountable and take full responsibility for any damage/injury/death caused by my trap sets"

And that is the crux of the issue. No responsibility and accountability...only the desire to set out these indiscriminate devices wherever and whenever and if someone's pet gets caught, well, so be it.

Trappers are their own worst enemy, not the bird hunter or the other recreational users. They'll kill their sport, not us.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Soooo, as of now, it looks like absolutely no pro-trapper here has stepped up to say "I'll be 100% accountable and take full responsibility for any damage/injury/death caused by my trap sets"

And that is the crux of the issue. No responsibility and accountability...only the desire to set out these indiscriminate devices wherever and whenever and if someone's pet gets caught, well, so be it.

Trappers are their own worst enemy, not the bird hunter or the other recreational users. They'll kill their sport, not us.

Ok - enough with the overstatements - there have been plenty of posts above by responsible trappers who go above and beyond the legal requirements to avoid catching dogs. Similar to the ineffectiveness of of the GFY trapper position, your veiled threats of violence and broad overstatements don’t do anything for the rest of us dog hunters either.

Earlier you said you were a longtime lurker on HT - frankly, if you can’t find a more reasoned tone I would prefer you go back to lurking - we already have enough blowhards - we don’t need another.

 

[MTGomer]

The upland community sure is weird. Beard oil and all.

The IG profile @beta_male_upland is a great parody of it.

A vegan, a trad bow hunter, a crossfitter, and an upland hunter walk in to a bar......

 

[Shangobango]

Soooo, as of now, it looks like absolutely no pro-trapper here has stepped up to say "I'll be 100% accountable and take full responsibility for any damage/injury/death caused by my trap sets"

And that is the crux of the issue. No responsibility and accountability...only the desire to set out these indiscriminate devices wherever and whenever and if someone's pet gets caught, well, so be it.

Trappers are their own worst enemy, not the bird hunter or the other recreational users. They'll kill their sport, not us.

I am going to reply to this, not for your sake, but for others here who actually take a civil tone in their opposition to certain tools of the trapping trade.

1. If I was to legally set a trap in what I deem an acceptable manner as to not catch someones dog and it still happened, first of all I would feel horrible, secondly I would hold myself accountable with a few qualifiers. Here we have a State wide leash law except when a dog is actively hunting or working they are to be leashed or constrained by the owner. So if the situation was that I was 2 miles from the nearest house on a piece of public ground where I know there is little chance of there being active hunting dogs and I catch someones pet who has zero business being there, no I would not take any blame. That is on the dog owner who is letting there dog run free illegally.

2. As to the indiscriminate killing fallacy, that just isn’t the way it works, at least not if a trapper has any clue what they are doing. If I can set dry bodygrips that effectively exclude dogs it isn’t rocket surgery. Sight selection is a large part of this. Leaving a place for the dog to go over the trap instead of through is the other. So do not block above the trap. A trapper is going to miss a few coons and cats that way that they would have caught by forcing everything through but it is well worth the missed fur to stay out of conflict with the public. Once again I never use bait or lure of any kind when I set dry bodygrips. That is another key.

I am sorry if it irks some people that I don’t think it is fair for someone who knows very little about trapping to tell me I can’t put a 220 on an otter crossover miles from the nearest house with no active hunting dogs in the area.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I am going to reply to this, not for your sake, but for others here who actually take a civil tone in their opposition to certain tools of the trapping trade.

1. If I was to legally set a trap in what I deem an acceptable manner as to not catch someones dog and it still happened, first of all I would feel horrible, secondly I would hold myself accountable with a few qualifiers. Here we have a State wide leash law except when a dog is actively hunting or working they are to be leashed or constrained by the owner. So if the situation was that I was 2 miles from the nearest house on a piece of public ground where I know there is little chance of there being active hunting dogs and I catch someones pet who has zero business being there, no I would not take any blame. That is on the dog owner who is letting there dog run free illegally.

2. As to the indiscriminate killing fallacy, that just isn’t the way it works, at least not if a trapper has any clue what they are doing. If I can set dry bodygrips that effectively exclude dogs it isn’t rocket surgery. Sight selection is a large part of this. Leaving a place for the dog to go over the trap instead of through is the other. So do not block above the trap. A trapper is going to miss a few coons and cats that way that they would have caught by forcing everything through but it is well worth the missed fur to stay out of conflict with the public. Once again I never use bait or lure of any kind when I set dry bodygrips. That is another key.

I am sorry if it irks some people that I don’t think it is fair for someone who knows very little about trapping to tell me I can’t put a 220 on an otter crossover miles from the nearest house with no active hunting dogs in the area.

We really need more of @Shangobango and @huronmtns style posting when this topic comes up. Reasonable and instructive - thanks for wading through the BS to still post useful stuff for the rest of us. I now see how in many parts of the state this type of thinking can help - but I do think there is a particularly dense grouse and trapping area on limited public land in mid-northern MN that either needs bodygrip ban or separate seasons to really solve the problem given many of our local trappers do not seem interested/able in the types of precautions the two of you point out.

 

[VikingsGuy]

The upland community sure is weird. Beard oil and all.

The IG profile @beta_male_upland is a great parody of it.

A vegan, a trad bow hunter, a crossfitter, and an upland hunter walk in to a bar......

LOL. Is there a guy doing this for snooty western big game hunters? Or self important locals? We need those too.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The upland community sure is weird. Beard oil and all.

I went on a pheasant hunt once...

"So we wake up at 9... hit the field at 11, end at 3... and I pay for the birds I WILL shoot up front?"

"And those birds were in a cage in a truck 48 hours ago"

"and if I understand this right we keep the birds, that the previous group shot.... the guides will carry the birds so I don't need a vest"

....

"Oh no I just wanted to get the facts out of the way, please continue with your criticism of my dog and firearm choices, something about 'a true sportsman wouldn't get a corgi, and mossbergs are for rednecks'"

 

[rwc101]

I went on a pheasant hunt once...

...

 

[BuzzH]

I think Montana has done a good job with their trapping regulations. A lot of that has to do with the Montana Trappers Association working with FWP to change regulations to decrease the chances of pets and the general public encountering traps. They have worked with FWP to create no trapping areas in high public use locations and increased setbacks from roads and trailheads. In the last handful of years there have also been changes to legal trap mechanics such as break aways and swivel locations to decrease harm to non target catches. In my opinion it was also a smart call to not allow snaring for wolves. Way too many brand new guys getting into trapping just to kill wolves that don't know what they are doing. It would have led to a lot more negative dog interactions. MTA leadership could see the writing on the wall with general public opinion and groups like Trap Free Montana gaining traction. Trappers can still be very effective, and if done properly the chances of negative publicity are minimal. Of course it will happen, but the less it does the better.

Despite what I have said earlier in this thread, I really don't want to see trapping disappear. Unfortunately, trapping does not have the best optics and can be difficult to justify for many people. Like others have mentioned, many of the pro trapping arguments in this thread are not going to fly with the public.

Blaming dog owners and dogs - WAY more dog lovers than trapper lovers. That argument is not even working on a site full of hunters.

The economic benefits - don't think your average American is supportive of killing those cute fluffy animals just so someone can make a few $$, and trapping is insignificant when it comes to US international trade deficits.

Changing hunting seasons and or closing areas to the general public to decrease conflict with trappers - Just don't see that happening either. The numbers on each side just don't work in the favor of trapping.

Now, I don't necessarily agree with any of that, but you and I are not anywhere near the average citizen with our knowledge and opinion on anything related to this. It is not fair that trappers are the ones that always have to give something up, but that is just the way it is going to be. Our country and society is changing. The US population is increasing, development is spreading like crazy, there are more people recreating on public lands, there are many new types of recreational activities people are doing out there, information is spread much more easily, and on and on. Trappers need to be extra vigilant about keeping negative public contact to a minimum.

Im not sure what the best pro trapping arguments are for the general public, but I think it needs to be geared more towards biology. Some examples could be - trapping bans can lead to overpopulation and disease outbreaks in furbearers that can also impact other species and pets. Trapping keeps waterfowl and upland bird egg eating predator populations in check. Fish and game agencies use trapping often to monitor populations and catch and move animals to new habitat. There are several research papers on these topics to back up these arguments. I have also heard some great presentations by wildlife biologist exhorting the benefits of trapping.

Or you could just go straight to emotional reasons since in reality most peoples opinions seem to be based on them (mine included at times). Coyotes kill tons of pet dogs and cats every year.

Coyote attacks on pets on the rise in metro areas; small dogs are especially vulnerable

Several pet owners have reported their small dogs have been killed or injured in coyote attacks

www.freep.com

There are also a bunch of YouTube videos of coyotes attacking dogs and cats in peoples backyards that might sway a pet lover.

All true and again, trapping bans are inevitable.

Like you stated, too many other users and when that happens, one inevitably has to go, or becomes so over-regulated that its either 99% impractical, or all but impossible to participate.

I also contend that all the best biology, all the best science, all the best arguments will not save trapping from its place in the dust-bin of progress.

Plenty of examples on this thread, self-imposed regulations with nothing left but more concessions, NOT compromise, its trappers giving things up from this point forward. As you stated, clearly the other side of the aisle, including bird hunters, are NOT compromising anything. Neither are pet owners.

There are essentially only 3 things left to concede and only 3 viable tools in the trapping tool-box, snares, body-grips, and legholds (sorry npaden, every trapper I've ever trapped with calls them legholds).

Trappers concede snares and you've hamstrung one of, if not the most, effective ways to catch coyotes. The smartest coyote on earth will uncover your best dirthole set, turn right around and walk right straight into a snare. They're also cheap, easy to set, and some situations about the only option you have.

Next we concede bodygrips, 2 tool gone from the toolbox. Otter trapping is all but done, a very effective beaver trapping tool, gone. Marten, mink, fisher...also severely hamstrung. Bobcats for guys like me that like quick kills, gone.

Now down to legholds...won't be enough when a dog gets its toes pinched and has to spend the night outdoors. Public opinion will assure a loss there too, as its just too cruel to have a furbearer stuck in a leghold, and we've already banned the quick kill option of snares and body-grips.

We can play the semantics game and try all we want to pretend that trappers and trapping can play nice with others to save the sport. It isn't happening for all the reasons you mentioned, encroachment, too many other users, very little active participation, and totally apathetic (at best) potential "allies". Even the potential "allies" don't come close to outnumbering the non-consumptive users.

The biological reason... lets be honest, most hunters don't even grasp basic population dynamics and we're expecting the average urbanite to understand the complexities of furbearers and furbearer management?

Again, not happening...game, set, match...its over. The only real thing left in the argument is when.

Oh, and one last thing, it gives me no pleasure to make this post, but its just where its headed and will end up.

Based on all that, like I said before, may as well go down swinging...

 

[Big Fin]

Wow, having been on the road for eight days, it has taken me a while to wade through this thread. Haven't read every post, but enough to get a feel for it.

Most have seen our trapping videos. I started trapping before I started hunting. I think I was six or seven when I had my first weasel line. It was that year that I caught my first pet, and have never caught a pet since them. I saw weasel tracks going into our firewood stack. So, I took some cat food and put an "ought" long spring in front of the little crack in the stack. That night, my Dad woke up to our cat whining. He went outside and found my sister's cat in my trap.

Since he had warned me about setting traps near our pets, I didn't get a "timeout." Even at midnight, an ass beating was deemed appropriate reward for my foolishness. A lesson well learned.

I have trapped for the better part of 50 years. Since catching my sister's cat in my first season, I've never caught another pet. A lot of that can be attributed to common sense; mostly where I set, what time of year, what type of sets, what traps/snares used, etc.

If I were to catch a pet, I would feel terrible, no matter where the culpability rests. Fortunately, I don't make any sets that would be lethal to a pet. I only use conibears under water. Due to the huge number of unrestrained pets in the part of MT, I don't use snares. I set my pan tension on land sets that I have a pretty good idea of what size of animal it would take to spring the trap. Suffice to say, in almost all instances it would take a large canine to spring the trap and if they did, the offset jaws would serve to restrain the animal without much pain or likely no injury.

I accept that trapping is under attack. It has been since I was in college and I've had more than my share of it. My first time of being on TV was at an animal rights protest in Reno in 1989. They organized their protest around the set date that trappers were given to get their pelts sealed by NDOW. It was the only date that worked for me and my tax season schedule so I went to the NDOW office to get my bobcat pelts sealed wading through a long line of hecklers and TV cameras. A 23 year-old trapper in his CPA attire, carrying an arm load of bobcat pelts was more than the journalists could resist. I ended up on the evening news and a large center spread in the Sunday edition of the Las Vegas newspaper.

That exposure only made things worse. The next morning at the CPA firm, many who saw the news that evening were quick to give me an earful of what they thought of trapping. When the Vegas paper spread came out, another wave of pissed off people felt compelled to give me an earful. A lot of trappers reached out to me and thanked me, but the experience made it very obvious that the future of trapping is not very bright.

Now in Montana, I don't trap on public lands (this proposed legislation applies to all lands, not just public lands). Just not worth the risk of an accidental catch of a pet that is off leash and a long distance from a trail or road. In effect, it has marginalized where I am willing to trap, which serves the purpose of reducing trapping.

I trap on private land. I've still had traps messed with. Duck hunters and fisherman along a river are some of the worst. I can see their tracks in the mud and snow, seeing what they are doing. I go to my sets that are often up creeks that feed the river, and my wires are untwisted and my conibears are gone.

I am trustee of a large ranch. The ranch incurs the amount of wolf predation you would expect from cattle operation based in prime wolf and grizzly habitat. They accept it as a cost of doing business and they don't file for any depredation claims. Those who read the Bozeman Daily Chronicle might remember a big spat of an REI x-country skier whose dog got caught in a wolf trap, giving the owner reason to make a huge stink in the newspaper.

The story that seemed not worthy to publish was that the skier was trespassing and the traps were set on private lands. The ranch manager had set some wolf traps on the ranch, almost a mile away from any public land. The skier's dog ends up in the trap, way into private land. The ranch manager gets a visit from the warden, trappers are drug through the mud in the public eye, and the ranch decides that it is no longer worth trying to manage wolves via trapping due to the amount of trespassing on the ranch.

Yes, that example is anecdotal. But, for some to comment that trappers are irresponsible and want to be unaccountable, does not reflect the reality of the behavior of the collective group who knows their activity is under scrutiny. Every trapper I know is very aware of this scrutiny and they take all reasonable steps to minimize conflicts with other outdoor pursuits. In my example, I've given up on trapping the millions of acres of public land out my backdoor. I know that every dog that finds its way to a trap, no matter how appropriate the trapper's activities, is another nail in the coffin of trapping.

I'm not naive enough to think there aren't some knotheads out there with a trapping license who do stupid stuff. It is for that reason that many trappers demand trapper education. If you sat through any of the trapper education classes, you would see a lot of focus on the topics that have been discussed in this thread. When you know you are under the microscope and you are a very, very small minority, you become hyper-aware of how the actions of even one person can spell the demise of an entire activity.

AFWA (Association of Fish & Wildlife Agencies) and the state trappers's associations have come up with BMPs on trapping. You can find the high points of those BMPs here - https://www.fishwildlife.org/application/files/5015/2104/8473/Introduction_comp.pdf

If you want to go into more detail of the 22 species for which BMPS have been developed, cruise the many links on this site - https://www.fishwildlife.org/afwa-inspires/furbearer-management

This BMP project has taken a ton of work, all designed to create better trappers who are more informed. I don't know of any outdoor user group who has went to such great lengths to develop BMPs for the participants of their activity, though such may exist and I've not yet found it. I think hunting would benefit from some of this same exercise that trappers have went through, by activity and species. I think the general outdoor recreationists would benefit from BMPs of public land use. But, until those other activities become as marginalized as trapping, I'm sure we won't see BMPs for those activities anytime soon.

This discussion has taken a lot of twists and turns from the original post about a piece of legislation that has very little likelihood of even getting a hearing. The value of this thread has been to see the perspectives hunters have on the topic of trapping. To me, that has been very enlightening.

Carry on....... (do so with civility)

 

[Shangobango]

All true and again, trapping bans are inevitable.

Like you stated, too many other users and when that happens, one inevitably has to go, or becomes so over-regulated that its either 99% impractical, or all but impossible to participate.

I also contend that all the best biology, all the best science, all the best arguments will not save trapping for its place in the dust-bin of progress.

Plenty of examples on this thread, self-imposed regulations with nothing left but more concessions, NOT compromise, its trappers giving things up from this point forward. As you stated, clearly the other side of the aisle, including bird hunters, are NOT compromising anything. Neither are pet owners.

There are essentially only 3 things left to concede and only 3 viable tools in the trapping tool-box, snares, body-grips, and legholds (sorry npaden, every trapper I've ever trapped with calls them legholds).

Trappers concede snares and you've hamstrung one of, if not the most, effective ways to catch coyotes. The smartest coyote on earth will uncover your best dirthole set, turn right around and walk right straight into a snare. They're also cheap, easy to set, and some situations about the only option you have.

Next we concede bodygrips, 2 tool gone from the toolbox. Otter trapping is all but done, a very effective beaver trapping tool, gone. Marten, mink, fisher...also severely hamstrung. Bobcats for guys like me that like quick kills, gone.

Now down to legholds...won't be enough when a dog gets its toes pinched and has to spend the night outdoors. Public opinion will assure a loss there too, as its just too cruel to have a furbearer stuck in a leghold, and we've already banned the quick kill option of snares and body-grips.

We can play the semantics game and try all we want to pretend that trappers and trapping can play nice with others to save the sport. It isn't happening for all the reasons you mentioned, encroachment, too many other users, very little active participation, and totally apathetic (at best) potential "allies". Even the potential "allies" don't come close to outnumbering the non-consumptive users.

The biological reason... lets be honest, most hunters don't even grasp basic population dynamics and we're expecting the average urbanite to understand the complexities of furbearers and furbearer management?

Again, not happening...game, set, match...its over.

I wish I could disagree with your sentiment on the future of trapping but I can’t. The end has began for some time.

It will hold on in some places in the lower 48 longer than others. I feel like I am in one of them luckily.

I just hope when I have grandkids I hope I can give them the experience and let them have a glimpse into a trade that has helped support my family to varying degrees for at least 5 generations.

 

[BuzzH]

I wish I could disagree with your sentiment on the future of trapping but I can’t. The end has began for some time.

It will hold on in some places in the lower 48 longer than others. I feel like I am in one of them luckily.

I just hope when I have grandkids I hope I can give them the experience and let them have a glimpse into a trade that has helped support my family to varying degrees for at least 5 generations.

I wish I could disagree with me too...progress has a price and the piper will be paid.

 

[westbranch]

LOL. Is there a guy doing this for snooty western big game hunters? Or self important locals? We need those too.

I think making.hunting.great.again on IG covers some of that.

 

[shoots-straight]

Ok - enough with the overstatements - there have been plenty of posts above by responsible trappers who go above and beyond the legal requirements to avoid catching dogs. Similar to the ineffectiveness of of the GFY trapper position, your veiled threats of violence and broad overstatements don’t do anything for the rest of us dog hunters either.

Earlier you said you were a longtime lurker on HT - frankly, if you can’t find a more reasoned tone I would prefer you go back to lurking - we already have enough blowhards - we don’t need another.

There's anti trapping groups here in Montana that look for trappers sets. It's relatively easy to find a trapper and go and locate his sets in winter. I have one buddy here that traps several "REMOTE" areas in winter. These 2, 72 year old anti trapper ladies drove their cars up the unplowed road, pushing snow in the dead of winter, took Fiffy on the trappers trail to his traps and when Fiffy got in the trap they started taking pictures for their cause.

If Trappers where held responsible for every dog that got in a trap, "Monetarily" how long would trapping continue? The Aniti's would have a field day with that. Most of us are careful with our trapping and MOST don't catch dogs. I came close once when a weird cross country skier went up a terrible downfall draw for several miles to one of my sets. His dog entered the bobcat cubby but the skier must of figured out what was going on and called his dog back before getting in the foothold.

If you're a bird hunter with a dog, most have collars to locate them. If your dog is stationary you can go to that dog and if trapped release him. Very few of us use traps that kill your dog. Footholds will scare your dog but won't mess him up. You're getting very emotional.

 

[TheJason]

I think hunting would benefit from some of this same exercise that trappers have went through, by activity and species. I think the general outdoor recreationists would benefit from BMPs of public land use.

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I think the general outdoor recreationists would benefit from BMPs of public land use. But, until those other activities become as marginalized as trapping, I'm sure we won't see BMPs for those activities anytime soon.

Great point and I totally agree.

"Don't ride when it's wet" signs are cropping up more and more on MTB trails. On a bunch of the trails I grew up riding I'm constantly frustrated at people riding the loop the wrong direction, riding when wet, not understanding right of way both with regards to uphill/downhill users but also between rec groups.

I can easily list a number of basic BMPs for all kinds of public land users, I think we all can.

I think you really hit the nail on the head, BMPs are crucial for all users groups. If users would be more aggressive about education I think we could mitigate a number of issues; both conflicts and damages to the resources.

 

[BuzzH]

But, until those other activities become as marginalized as trapping, I'm sure we won't see BMPs for those activities anytime soon.

Couldn't agree more...and by the time those other activities get around to it, it will be too late, as per always.

 

[BuzzH]

Great point and I totally agree.

"Don't ride when it's wet" signs are cropping up more and more on MTB trails. On a bunch of the trails I grew up riding I'm constantly frustrated at people riding the loop the wrong direction, riding when wet, not understanding right of way both with regards to uphill/downhill users but also between rec groups.

I can easily list a number of basic BMPs for all kinds of public land users, I think we all can.

I think you really hit the nail on the head, BMPs are crucial for all users groups. If users would be more aggressive about education I think we could mitigate a number of issues; both conflicts and damages to the resources.

Yeah, in concept and theory it works great, in reality, totally different.

Classic example is the city property where I walk my dog on a leash everyday. Signs stating leash laws, articles in the newspapers, trash cans on each side of 1.5 mile long loop with poop sack dispensers, plumb full of sacks that never get used, for picking up after your dog.

I'll take a picture today for you of all the dogs off-leash, probably 95%, and the pile after pile of dogchit they cant pick up.

Maybe I'll break out the cell phone camera and see if I can capture the classic inter-action of me being the arsehole for asking them to pick up their dogchit and put their dog on a leash...

Oh, those BMP's in action...might work for some user-groups, but not dog owners.