Gritty Podcast 527: The future of hunting

[bushman13]

My best buddy John, non hunter. We grew up together back east, he now lives out here too. Every time I wanted to drag John along in FL or Georgia, I went by his house and said load up.
Fast forward to current day. John wants to get into bow hunting for the food value. He asks me how and all I can do is sigh. Not because it isn't possible, because I know there is solid year of policy education and another year of playing a points game.
I've been hunting since 3 1/2 years old and this CO system made me shake my head, imagine what it looks like for a non hunter?

Have you ever spoken to someone who wanted to get involved with hunting but didn't? Or someone who did but spoke to some challenges involved? I'd really be interested to hear the person who said "man, I really want to go deer hunting but I only have a one week season." I know the most prevalent question I've encountered from people wanting to start hunting has been "where do I go?" with "is there someone who could show me the ropes?" being a close second.

 

[bushman13]

Brass tacks is, midwestern hunter numbers are in sharp decline. You are still defending a sinking ship, what is a better plan than my idea of making it more inviting? You can still have blackout dates around harvesting times.

Imagine it’s July in Iowa. You practice shooting, seek permission for access to hunt some new spots. August you hang stands and set out the game cams. Sept you look at some giants and see the velvet shed. Take a youth out for their season. Oct kicks off 10 straight weeks of bow hunting. Or hunt early muzzleloader. Dec you have one dead week where a lot of hunters stay indoors *tragic* The Other week you get 9 days of gun season on a tag that’s valid for the entire state! Then butchering, taxidermy, and Christmas venison. Round 2 of bow season for another 3 weeks into Jan. Did I mention you can buy unlimited doe tags? Feb find some great sheds.

Not everyone will enjoy hunting WT in IA, but if you do the state’s your oyster. Also, pick up a reasonably priced OTC buck tag in nearby states of MO, MN, WI, or NE if you’re set on firearm instead of bow.

Now let’s run your scenario: A long HP rifle season. It’s completely out of the question until mid-November because farmers are out harvesting. Even the second half of Nov is sketchy on late harvest years. The additional animals harvested because of efficiency reduce opportunity for the thousands of youth, young, and new hunters who primarily bowhunt. So subtract their numbers from your hunter recruitment formula. IA can no longer charge the highest price of any state for NR whitetail because of a new sea of dinks, so remove a big chunk of the NR license dollars from IA conservation. A handful of Western transplants who don’t understand short range weapon hunting take up the sport and add to hunter numbers, except they don’t make up for the losses from decreased quality and opportunity I mentioned.

 

[np307]

My best buddy John, non hunter. We grew up together back east, he now lives out here too. Every time I wanted to drag John along in FL or Georgia, I went by his house and said load up.
Fast forward to current day. John wants to get into bow hunting for the food value. He asks me how and all I can do is sigh. Not because it isn't possible, because I know there is solid year of policy education and another year of playing a points game.
I've been hunting since 3 1/2 years old and this CO system made me shake my head, imagine what it looks like for a non hunter?

So like I said, his entry to hunting is needing a mentor, not the hurdles of a complicated system.

EDIT: I'm wholly unfamiliar with the resident scene in CO, but I really have a hard time believing that someone has to play the points game as a resident when there are OTC elk tags for nonresidents....

 

[cedahm]

My best buddy John, non hunter. We grew up together back east, he now lives out here too. Every time I wanted to drag John along in FL or Georgia, I went by his house and said load up.
Fast forward to current day. John wants to get into bow hunting for the food value. He asks me how and all I can do is sigh. Not because it isn't possible, because I know there is solid year of policy education and another year of playing a points game.
I've been hunting since 3 1/2 years old and this CO system made me shake my head, imagine what it looks like for a non hunter?

OTC tags are available for archery elk in like 60 units west of I-25 and you can hunt 29 days in any of them. That is about as low a barrier to entry that I can imagine. After August 5, just buy a tag anywhere they are sold.

Deer tags are draw only (for ~20 years now). Many of which require no points, many of which can be garnered as a 2nd/3rd/4th/leftover choice. Also 29 days to hunt them with a bow.

I am on record saying how complicated certain pieces of the regulations are (bears, notably), but getting an archery tag for elk or deer in Colorado is pretty straightforward.

 

[bushman13]

My go forward plan is stay out of all OTC units. So if he wanted to hunt with me, it's the points game. Even my home unit I can't draw without playing the points game.

So like I said, his entry to hunting is needing a mentor, not the hurdles of a complicated system.

EDIT: I'm wholly unfamiliar with the resident scene in CO, but I really have a hard time believing that someone has to play the points game as a resident when there are OTC elk tags for nonresidents....

 

[np307]

My go forward plan is stay out of all OTC units. So if he wanted to hunt with me, it's the points game. Even my home unit I can't draw without playing the points game.

So then the hurdle to entry is an artificial limit that you have imposed, not one inherent to the system.

 

[bushman13]

Actually not my plan, giving to me recently by the former Cyber Security Director for the State. He has jumped ship and joined the private sector (me grilling him about elk all day).

My go forward plan is stay out of all OTC units. So if he wanted to hunt with me, it's the points game. Even my home unit I can't draw without playing the points game.

 

[bushman13]

Self imposed or a logical solution to CO having no idea its actual herd numbers and overselling to NR's to fund the system?

So then the hurdle to entry is an artificial limit that you have imposed, not one inherent to the system.

 

[Muskeez]

This is like a bad car wreck, I can't help but look at the replay once in a while. You just keep shooting yourself in the wiener Bushman. So, your best buddy wants to go archery hunting for meat but now you can't take him because you don't want to hunt the countless OTC units? YOU are the problem that you are trying to address. If someone wants to go hunting, take them! in COLORADO. Not to Iowa for a 30 day rifle season that you have been dreaming about. Be a part of the solution, not the problem. Where is that emoji of the little yellow guy banging his head against the wall???

 

[bushman13]

So I'm the only one on this thread proposing a solution, everyone else is defending status quo. It's for purpose of conversation.
I dream about staying out of Iowa, just so you know.

The reason to avoid OTC units in Colorado is a strategy devised from too many hunters in one place at one time.

What are your solutions for declining Midwestern hunting? For the gen pop to eventually get so fat they start rolling over on deer(no rifle needed)? Maybe a week long blunderbuss season?

This is like a bad car wreck, I can't help but look at the replay once in a while. You just keep shooting yourself in the wiener Bushman. So, your best buddy wants to go archery hunting for meat but now you can't take him because you don't want to hunt the countless OTC units? YOU are the problem that you are trying to address. If someone wants to go hunting, take them! in COLORADO. Not to Iowa for a 30 day rifle season that you have been dreaming about. Be a part of the solution, not the problem. Where is that emoji of the little yellow guy banging his head against the wall???

 

[vanish]

bushman, your points make little sense.

As a kid growing up in WNY, the only option we were allowed was a shotgun or muzzleloader. Deer camp was a big tradition where at least a dozen people attended. Nobody thought twice about using a shotgun.

10 years later, NYSDEC allowed rifles. Deer camp is dead. Only the most dedicated continue.

Had absolutely nothing to do with the weapon. Had everything to do with all the properties surrounding the different places we would hunt from becoming leased.

I guarantee this is one of the biggest factor in hunter numbers declining in the midwest.

 

[Muskeez]

Solutions: A few would include, getting more kids involved in FFA, Boy/Girl Scouts, any other outdoor activities instead of another team sport and traveling team. Next would be taking anyone that has any interest in the outdoors to the outdoors. Take them camping, hiking, scouting for deer in the mtns., target shooting, squirrel hunting, fishing, rafting, and bowhunting on public land in OTC units. They may even get to meet someone at the trailhead or around a campfire in those busy areas that will take them hunting more than their friend that is afraid of all the people in the OTC units that are supposedly leaving our sport. hmmm,.. contradiction?..?? Your solution of a month long rifle season or using the same tag for archery then rifle only helps the lazy or busy ones eventually fill their tag.

 

[bushman13]

It's not about the weapon, its about providing as much as possible to the hunter to make it inviting.

With say AL and TX being 100% leases and hunting thriving, what is the difference between WNY? I would argue culture. How do you create culture? Have something available that people want to participate in. Would love to hear your answer to the above question.

bushman, your points make little sense.

As a kid growing up in WNY, the only option we were allowed was a shotgun or muzzleloader. Deer camp was a big tradition where at least a dozen people attended. Nobody thought twice about using a shotgun.

10 years later, NYSDEC allowed rifles. Deer camp is dead. Only the most dedicated continue.

Had absolutely nothing to do with the weapon. Had everything to do with all the properties surrounding the different places we would hunt from becoming leased.

I guarantee this is one of the biggest factor in hunter numbers declining in the midwest.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Your solution of a month long rifle season or using the same tag for archery then rifle only helps the lazy or busy ones eventually fill their tag.

Exactly, and this is supported by hunter reported days in the field across states.

 

[bushman13]

I see your points, but in reality how is the new hunter going to feel in an OTC unit where year after year, chances are, they don't see squat?
In an opposite scenario, you bring that person on a lease and they get to harvest a small buck or doe on the first outing. Which one is going to hook the newb?
I've seen the trailhead culture and no one is shooting anything and honestly it's kind of depressing.

Your solution of a month long rifle season or using the same tag for archery then rifle only helps the lazy or busy ones eventually fill their tag.

Spoken straight out of ignorance, which is fine. It's the same place my Western hunting comments come from.

Where I do not speak from ignorance is concerning long rifle seasons.
What really happens with a 3 month rifle season:
You become an extremely conscious hunter who rarely pulls the trigger. A common approach, even with a 12 deer limit and 3 month season, is to shoot one or two does opening day and then you are a ghost until the rut. You are simply an outdoorsman and observer until mossy horns shows up, then you consider pulling the trigger again. This equates to many sunups and sundowns in the woods. This equates to learning each animal in the herd. Observing the changing of the seasons, watching the diets of the ungulates shift. Watching the pre-rut, rut and post behaviors. Watching the younger bucks vacate right before the mature bucks start patrolling. Socially it means many days in the field with family and loved ones. Many cookouts and bs stories that span for months, not a single fleeting occurrence.

Compare this to the experience a week long hunter has. Guaranteed it's brown its down. If he sees something, 99% chance its the first time he has laid eyes on the animal. He has developed little connection to the land or the resource. The herds are literally running for their lives, this cant be good for herd health. For his own experience and satisfaction, arguing a week in the field is better than months, is simply disingenuous.

It's a quality of life issue for the hunter, amazing that a hunter would argue for less days a field. Reminds me of saying that I live my life by.
To stay the same you have to change, otherwise you are going backwards.

Solutions: A few would include, getting more kids involved in FFA, Boy/Girl Scouts, any other outdoor activities instead of another team sport and traveling team. Next would be taking anyone that has any interest in the outdoors to the outdoors. Take them camping, hiking, scouting for deer in the mtns., target shooting, squirrel hunting, fishing, rafting, and bowhunting on public land in OTC units. They may even get to meet someone at the trailhead or around a campfire in those busy areas that will take them hunting more than their friend that is afraid of all the people in the OTC units that are supposedly leaving our sport. hmmm,.. contradiction?..?? Your solution of a month long rifle season or using the same tag for archery then rifle only helps the lazy or busy ones eventually fill their tag.

 

[bushman13]

So a person that hunts 50 days is lazier than a person who hunts 5? Give me a break. What you are seeing in the Western stats is simply conditioning. When you are conditioned to hunt short, you hunt short. Given the opportunity, a hunter will hunt an entire long season with the only rush being the opener and rut.

Exactly, and this is supported by hunter reported days in the field across states.

 

[SandyCreek]

Exactly, those seasons have been in place for as long as you can remember. And hunter numbers are falling off the cliff in these areas. Where are they not falling and what is the discrepancy?
I believe it's the seasons. Take Iowa again for an example, what would happen if they gave the hunter a 2 month rifle season with a 1 buck 2 doe limit? This is just an example, but you are telling the hunter: We trust you with a rifle. We value your time enough that we are now giving you months instead of weeks. And we value your right to procure food across the fall hunting season. TBH the shotgun only thing is offensive and indicates hunters are not safe.
What possible benefit could a week long shotgun hunting season have over the southern style season?

that's an easy answer.. we wouldn't have an age class. the only reason we have the deer we do is because of our season structure. also side bar there's: early youth season, fall muzzleloader, 3 weeks of fire arms which yes now includes straight wall cartridges, a 3 week late muzzleloader season and after that late antler less seasons that you are able to use high-power rifles in. Its really a good system.

 

[SandyCreek]

What are your solutions for declining Midwestern hunting? For the gen pop to eventually get so fat they start rolling over on deer(no rifle needed)? Maybe a week long blunderbuss season?

personally i don't think there is a solution. in the end i think times change and so will peoples pursuits.

 

[bushman13]

Agreed it's good system for antlers. But you can literally project, using declining hunter numbers, when hunting will dry up. Why not shoot for nice antlers and expanding hunter base? With all that corn there has to be a way to do both.

that's an easy answer.. we wouldn't have an age class. the only reason we have the deer we do is because of our season structure. also side bar there's: early youth season, fall muzzleloader, 3 weeks of fire arms which yes now includes straight wall cartridges, a 3 week late muzzleloader season and after that late antler less seasons that you are able to use high-power rifles in. Its really a good system.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

So a person that hunts 50 days is lazier than a person who hunts 5? Give me a break. What you are seeing in the Western stats is simply conditioning. When you are conditioned to hunt short, you hunt short. Given the opportunity, a hunter will hunt an entire long season with the only rush being the opener and rut.

No I'm saying average hunter days in the field is similar across the states regardless of season length. At a certain point season length doesn't matter... that seems to be around 5-9 days. Wyoming residents hunt elk longer than anyone... I'm sure BuzzH could tell you why.

Do you honestly think that we just decided 5 years ago out of the blue to have seasons the way they are now? No they evolved over time, seasons are the way they are for a multitude of complex reasons.

Montana 9 days in the field, 25% success rates. (They have a virtually year round season 6 weeks archery, 6 weeks rifle, plus roster hunts, shoulder seasons, etc etc.





Colorado average 5 days in the field 19% success rates





Idaho is 6.5 days and 16.7% success
Wyoming is 10 days for NR 18 days for Residents with 50% success rates