Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[Trial153]

Thanks for shooting straight Oak.


My take from that is that Wildlife, habitat and healthier ecosystem will continue to take a back seat to profits, subsidies and ranching welfare. If we are lucky we pick up a few targeted scraps that at some point may get tossed off the table.

Increasing Wildlife populations in the west is a pipe dream.

 

[Perlodid]

Thanks for shooting straight Oak.


My take from that is that Wildlife, habitat and healthier ecosystem will continue to take a back seat to profits, subsidies and ranching welfare. If we are lucky we pick up a few targeted scraps that at some point may get tossed off the table.

Increasing Wildlife populations in the west is a pipe dream.

If we all had your attitude, I'm sure it would be. Might as well just give up now, huh?

 

[Forkyfinder]

Thanks for shooting straight Oak.


My take from that is that Wildlife, habitat and healthier ecosystem will continue to take a back seat to profits, subsidies and ranching welfare. If we are lucky we pick up a few targeted scraps that at some point may get tossed off the table.

Increasing Wildlife populations in the west is a pipe dream.

Better to hope and try for a pipe dream than to embrace a nightmare.

 

[Forkyfinder]

The facts, whether we like them or not, is that going after all grazing or increasing the fees are non-starters. We have the potential to make progress by focusing on specific resource conflicts, specific land health issues, specific bad actors among the permittees, and specific field offices and ranger districts that are doing nothing to address the previous items in this list.

I have a few examples of how resource conflicts which should not be controversial to address still get zero traction with the agencies, highlighting why I say the grazing programs are broken. Unfortunately, I'm sitting on a boring Zoom right now. I'll post them up another day.

Beyond calling in specific bad actors to the local agency, what can orgs and individuals do?

What did you think about my negative AMU? I suppose buying gps collars? Education?

 

[Elkmagnet]

If we all had your attitude, I'm sure it would be. Might as well just give up now, huh?

He's not wrong. We would need a major change in the makeup of our state government to turn this around.
Idaho has been shooting the hell out of elk for about 5 years saying it's deemed necessary due to "social science" mainly ranching conflicts.
On the high desert and wilderness where I live there are 200 cow tags in January and 200 cow tags in February. The cows are getting ready to calf. These elk are migratory from other units and even other states. They are mostly gone before the cattle get turned out.
These hunts are strictly to reduce competition with cattle grazing. They have additional hunts on or near private that can be justified but the cows in the desert and wilderness areas are hurting nothing.

 

[Trial153]

If we all had your attitude, I'm sure it would be. Might as well just give up now, huh?

Let me give you a does of reality.

Right now wildlife is sacrificed and take subjugated role to…let me list it.
~Energy Development, green energy, O&G, Hydro, coal and Wind …
~Farming
~Ranching
~Industrial Development
~Mining
~Commercial Fishing
~ residential development

Now tell me again about your optimism.

 

[Ben Lamb]

Beyond calling in specific bad actors to the local agency, what can orgs and individuals do?

What did you think about my negative AMU? I suppose buying gps collars? Education?

https://www.blm.gov/sites/default/files/docs/2023-05/Conservation%20Leasing%20fact%20sheet%205-11-23.pdf

 

[Ben Lamb]

Now tell me again about your optimism.

Apparently someone had a lonely valentine's day.

 

[Tomahawk]

To increase the grazing fees to fair market value we just need to create a webpage where public grazing allotments can be reserved.

 

[Forkyfinder]

He's not wrong. We would need a major change in the makeup of our state government to turn this around.
Idaho has been shooting the hell out of elk for about 5 years saying it's deemed necessary due to "social science" mainly ranching conflicts.
On the high desert and wilderness where I live there are 200 cow tags in January and 200 cow tags in February. The cows are getting ready to calf. These elk are migratory from other units and even other states. They are mostly gone before the cattle get turned out.
These hunts are strictly to reduce competition with cattle grazing. They have additional hunts on or near private that can be justified but the cows in the desert and wilderness areas are hurting nothing.

None of the wildlife exist today without that very thing though.

Consider history in the early 1900s

 

[Trial153]

Apparently someone had a lonely valentine's day.

Hey it Happens …

 

[Ben Lamb]

Hey it Happens …

I'll get you some flowers & Lubriderm, buddy.

 

[Trial153]

I'll get you some flowers & Lubriderm, buddy.

I can always count on you

 

[Ben Lamb]

I can always count on you

 

[Flynarrow]

Just returned from another southern AZ winter where I wandered the Coronado NF for two months with bow or shotgun in hand nearly every day. The poor monsoon season meant little forage production but the cows were out in force. Overgrazing was the worst I have seen in my 24 winters there. My hunting buddies were also appalled. In addition to no residual cover, introduced lovegrass and overgrazing of desirable forage grasses has greatly diminished capacity over huge acreages. Unfortunately the predictions for the future are that good monsoons will be less frequent and the southwest landscapes will be hotter. The biggest ranches are being bought by billionaires, but they are still able to feed at the public trough. Past and ongoing efforts by dedicated hunter to better balance grazing with other resources has not been fruitful.

Here in Montana public land grazing is certainly a mixed bag, but it is far too common to see riparian areas along with streambanks badly damaged. Don't need a map to identify State land as it is usually recognizable by the slicked off lands.

In Idaho where I hunt upland birds, inappropriate public land grazing has fostered the enormous expansion of cheatgrass, medusahead rye, and other invasives that harm both livestock grazing capacity as well as wildlife habitat. Some of these changes are largely irreversible.

The reality is that the livestock industry is firmly in political power at both the State and Federal levels across the West. Last figures I saw were about 3X more public grazing expenditures than revenue, and that seems too low. Public land range management is poorly funded. With their power at the State level (eg legislatures), fish and wildlife agencies tread very lightly or don't touch the subject. Status quo management by agencies is much easier than change. Even mainstream conservation/wildlife groups are hesitant to be involved. Many outfitters benefit from their relationships with ranchers and won't get involved. So IMO, the public's wildlife and fish will just have to suck it up for the foreseeable future.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Just returned from another southern AZ winter where I wandered the Coronado NF for two months with bow or shotgun in hand nearly every day. The poor monsoon season meant little forage production but the cows were out in force. Overgrazing was the worst I have seen in my 24 winters there. My hunting buddies were also appalled. In addition to no residual cover, introduced lovegrass and overgrazing of desirable forage grasses has greatly diminished capacity over huge acreages. Unfortunately the predictions for the future are that good monsoons will be less frequent and the southwest landscapes will be hotter. The biggest ranches are being bought by billionaires, but they are still able to feed at the public trough. Past and ongoing efforts by dedicated hunter to better balance grazing with other resources has not been fruitful.

Here in Montana public land grazing is certainly a mixed bag, but it is far too common to see riparian areas along with streambanks badly damaged. Don't need a map to identify State land as it is usually recognizable by the slicked off lands.

In Idaho where I hunt upland birds, inappropriate public land grazing has fostered the enormous expansion of cheatgrass, medusahead rye, and other invasives that harm both livestock grazing capacity as well as wildlife habitat. Some of these changes are largely irreversible.

The reality is that the livestock industry is firmly in political power at both the State and Federal levels across the West. Last figures I saw were about 3X more public grazing expenditures than revenue, and that seems too low. Public land range management is poorly funded. With their power at the State level (eg legislatures), fish and wildlife agencies tread very lightly or don't touch the subject. Status quo management by agencies is much easier than change. Even mainstream conservation/wildlife groups are hesitant to be involved. Many outfitters benefit from their relationships with ranchers and won't get involved. So IMO, the public's wildlife and fish will just have to suck it up for the foreseeable future.

Not an answer im willing to accept. And i hope you dont either.

There are still common goals and benefits that are spread amongst people in otherwise seperate interests. We need to find them.

 

[SixPoint]

Do you have personal experience with Ruby Habitat...cause I do, which causes me to have a slightly different opinion of them.

Just out of curiosity, what did you see that gave you a different opinion?

 

[sclancy27]

Just out of curiosity, what did you see that gave you a different opinion?

I'm not going to comment on the open forum.

 

[SixPoint]

I'm not going to comment on the open forum.

Fair enough. From my experience they do some really cool stuff on the natural resource and ag front, especially balancing the two. They are tremendous to the community, and extremely generous when it comes to access for hunters and anglers. I'm sorry to hear you had a different experience.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Come on, they're profiting off of a public resource. Isn't that where the line is drawn for most folks?