Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[BuzzH]

Absolutely not. My points the opposite.

You need to study some range management.

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

Did influencers honestly get dragged into cattle grazing rights. Holy phuck!

 

[Trial153]

If

One of the first things you learn in range science class is that if grass is not grazed it produces less and less new growth every year. To make matters even worse, the grazing animal will have to pick through all the old dried up grass with little feed value to get at the meager amount of new growth. Unless forced to animals will refuse to eat the old growth and will just continue to re-graze the plants that have already been chewed on. The result is the most desirable plant spices take a beating and are replaced by the less desirable. This is why the grazing systems that @sclancy27 describes are the best. I am sure he can describe it better than I. There are down sides to these symptoms though. They require a lot of fencing and water development and many places in the west simply do not have this, especially on public land. We simply do not want the amount of fencing that would be required on public land. The water development required would be nice, all the new roads that would be required to maintain that water development. not so much. A very large ranch tried to implement one of these systems near me, if any one had the man power and money to do this it was them. I wouldn't call it a total failure, but I would say that they were successful ether.

thanks for that information. Seems like pie in the sky grazing that can only happen on a small scale in ideal spots.
If we had the similar historical amounts of large ungulates on the landscape they would graze the landscape sufficiently at healthy levels.
However we killed them off to make room for cows so ranchers can turn a profit.

 

[sclancy27]

One of the first things you learn in range science class is that if grass is not grazed it produces less and less new growth every year. To make matters even worse, the grazing animal will have to pick through all the old dried up grass with little feed value to get at the meager amount of new growth. Unless forced to animals will refuse to eat the old growth and will just continue to re-graze the plants that have already been chewed on. The result is the most desirable plant spices take a beating and are replaced by the less desirable. This is why the grazing systems that @sclancy27 describes are the best. I am sure he can describe it better than I. There are down sides to these symptoms though. They require a lot of fencing and water development and many places in the west simply do not have this, especially on public land. We simply do not want the amount of fencing that would be required on public land. The water development required would be nice, all the new roads that would be required to maintain that water development. not so much. A very large ranch tried to implement one of these systems near me, if any one had the man power and money to do this it was them. I wouldn't call it a total failure, but I would say that they were successful ether.

The ways I have seen it succeed is with temporary, movable fencing. You are correct, permanent fencing on the scale needed would be both financially and ecologically costly. The operations that I know that do it well have, basically, one or 2 "cowboys" that stay with the herd and fence in new pens every day.

Water is another tough spot, especially because, generally, cows grazed intensively need more water than normal. I know one ranch that will trail cows a mile or 2 to water every day when they are in a certain part of the ranch. I think the water part is where federal agencies can come in, we can provide the water systems if the lessee will graze in an intensive manner. I believe that would be an excellent use of resources.

 

[sclancy27]

If



thanks for that information. Seems like pie in the sky grazing that can only happen on a small scale in ideal spots.
If we had the similar historical amounts of large ungulates on the landscape they would graze the landscape sufficiently at healthy levels.
However we killed them off to make room for cows so ranchers can turn a profit.

Well, we had large Bovids (Bison), not ungulates. And it's not small scale. I know multiple ranches that run 1000-1500 cattle in this manner (that is big for MT).

 

[Ben Lamb]

The ways I have seen it succeed is with temporary, movable fencing. You are correct, permanent fencing on the scale needed would be both financially and ecologically costly. The operations that I know that do it well have, basically, one or 2 "cowboys" that stay with the herd and fence in new pens every day.

Water is another tough spot, especially because, generally, cows grazed intensively need more water than normal. I know one ranch that will trail cows a mile or 2 to water every day when they are in a certain part of the ranch. I think the water part is where federal agencies can come in, we can provide the water systems if the lessee will graze in an intensive manner. I believe that would be an excellent use of resources.

This seems like a unique evolution in cattle containment.

Crazy Mountain Virtual Fence Project

Pioneering ranching technology will improve wildlife habitat by enabling the removal of miles of internal barbed-wire fence.

www.perc.org

 

[BuzzH]

If that’s the case then these practices need to implemented as part of the contract for leases. If you not willing to or you don’t meet the goals that are in the contact then take the leases away.

I don’t understand why we are forced to subsidize poor choices. If and area isn’t conducive to raising cattle profitably without subsidies then they shouldn’t have settled their business there.

I tend to agree with some latitude for certain conditions, drought, etc.

It would be bad to NOT have grazing on systems that evolved with it, the same way that fire suppression has removed fire frequency in forested areas.

Grazing correctly is all about timing, intensity, and duration, the where is pretty important too. Grazing uplands in drier areas is a wayyyy different thing than grazing in riparian areas.

My biggest frustration with grazing is the riparian areas, those systems did not evolve with cattle parking their gooey butts in them all year.

I think studying the American Prairie, out in the field, for about a week would change your mind that grazing can't be beneficial. Turners properties are another. Bison on the landscape and how they behave is eye opening, and IMO, that is what I would try to reproduce via grazing cattle. That's how the systems evolved.

 

[antlerradar]

Are you saying that miners, loggers, oil and gas, etc. are paying "fair market value" for extracting resources off public land?

Laffin'...

I think that all of those industry have to submit a "competitive bid" when those resources are nominated to be leased. The problem is that many of the companies in in those industries have a considerable amount of monopoly power. For example when a coal lease is next to an existing mine, the existing mine is likely going to be the only one biding. Even in logging there are not going to be many bidders with all the mills that have closed down in the last 40 years.

 

[Nick87]

One of the first things you learn in range science class is that if grass is not grazed it produces less and less new growth every year. To make matters even worse, the grazing animal will have to pick through all the old dried up grass with little feed value to get at the meager amount of new growth. Unless forced to animals will refuse to eat the old growth and will just continue to re-graze the plants that have already been chewed on. The result is the most desirable plant spices take a beating and are replaced by the less desirable. This is why the grazing systems that @sclancy27 describes are the best. I am sure he can describe it better than I. There are down sides to these symptoms though. They require a lot of fencing and water development and many places in the west simply do not have this, especially on public land. We simply do not want the amount of fencing that would be required on public land. The water development required would be nice, all the new roads that would be required to maintain that water development. not so much. A very large ranch tried to implement one of these systems near me, if any one had the man power and money to do this it was them. I wouldn't call it a total failure, but I would say that they were successful ether.

Been patiently waiting for you to show up to this one.

 

[kwyeewyk]

The ways I have seen it succeed is with temporary, movable fencing. You are correct, permanent fencing on the scale needed would be both financially and ecologically costly. The operations that I know that do it well have, basically, one or 2 "cowboys" that stay with the herd and fence in new pens every day.

Water is another tough spot, especially because, generally, cows grazed intensively need more water than normal. I know one ranch that will trail cows a mile or 2 to water every day when they are in a certain part of the ranch. I think the water part is where federal agencies can come in, we can provide the water systems if the lessee will graze in an intensive manner. I believe that would be an excellent use of resources.

GPS collar virtual electric fence will hopefully solve this problem, looks like Ben beat me to it,

This seems like a unique evolution in cattle containment.

Crazy Mountain Virtual Fence Project

Pioneering ranching technology will improve wildlife habitat by enabling the removal of miles of internal barbed-wire fence.

www.perc.org

WDFW has been advocating this in Washington, with good results.

 

[sclancy27]

This seems like a unique evolution in cattle containment.

Crazy Mountain Virtual Fence Project

Pioneering ranching technology will improve wildlife habitat by enabling the removal of miles of internal barbed-wire fence.

www.perc.org

I was just going to mention those. I know several ranches in MT that are trying them out right now. Basically, for them, the tech is not quite there to put them into widespread use. This is the tech that could be game-changing for public land grazing. The BLM or FS could purchase the units and grazers use them as part of their lease. I'm guessing we are a decade or more out with that tho.

 

[Oak]

This seems like a unique evolution in cattle containment.

Crazy Mountain Virtual Fence Project

Pioneering ranching technology will improve wildlife habitat by enabling the removal of miles of internal barbed-wire fence.

www.perc.org

The sheep to cattle conversion I'm working on will include a Vence component.

 

[perma]

Did influencers honestly get dragged into cattle grazing rights. Holy phuck!

It's a wild off-season man.

 

[Trial153]

I tend to agree with some latitude for certain conditions, drought, etc.

It would be bad to NOT have grazing on systems that evolved with it, the same way that fire suppression has removed fire frequency in forested areas.

Grazing correctly is all about timing, intensity, and duration, the where is pretty important too. Grazing uplands in drier areas is a wayyyy different thing than grazing in riparian areas.

My biggest frustration with grazing is the riparian areas, those systems did not evolve with cattle parking their gooey butts in them all year.

I think studying the American Prairie, out in the field, for about a week would change your mind that grazing can't be beneficial. Turners properties are another. Bison on the landscape and how they behave is eye opening, and IMO, that is what I would try to reproduce via grazing cattle. That's how the systems evolved.

I am no expert on grazing or range land. I am pretty widely traveled especially for my age. And I have yet be on land inhabited by cattle that that doenst show signs of over grazings. I will include Canada to lesser degree and Mexico to a greater degree.

 

[BuzzH]

I think that all of those industry have to submit a "competitive bid" when those resources are nominated to be leased. The problem is that many of the companies in in those industries have a considerable amount of monopoly power. For example when a coal lease is next to an existing mine, the existing mine is likely going to be the only one biding. Even in logging there are not going to be many bidders with all the mills that have closed down in the last 40 years.

My question has always been why states like AK, WY, MT, that are rich in resources choose to privatize 100's of billions of profits from those resources?

 

[Forkyfinder]

You need to study some range management.

I am aware that grazing is beneficial, @BuzzH

 

[CT_SD]

Theres around 90 million cattle in America. Around 1.5 million of them are in montana and 2/3rds (another million) of that in Wy.

Yes there are ~90 million head of cattle in the US. Of that we are down to ~28 million beef cows-the lowest number in over 50 years. Dairy cattle numbers are fairly constant at ~9 million head. The rest are calves and yearlings being grown for slaughter or replacement females. ~12 million cattle are in feedlots.
Average cost to run a beef cow is ~$900/year. Ranchers are trying to make a living just like the rest of us. Costs continue to rise for all inputs as well as living expenses. There is very little land available for sale that can be paid for by running cattle as the only income source to pay for it. The majority of ranchers are great stewards of the land-they can make more money/run more cattle if they take care of the grass. Water is most often the limiting factor in effective grazing programs throughout much of the west.

 

[antlerradar]

I am no expert on grazing or range land. I am pretty widely traveled especially for my age. And I have yet be on land inhabited by cattle that that doenst show signs of over grazings. I will include Canada to lesser degree and Mexico to a greater degree.

looks can be deceiving. If you were to look at one of those well managed pastures @sclancy27 is writing about right after the cattle were removed, it is not going have rolling waves of grass. What you want to look for is species composition when judging rangeland.

 

[BigHornRam]

Keeping the cattle out of the riparian areas is labor intensive, but can be done, with major benefits to the land and cattle. We need to teach the next generation of ranchers, practices that will insure the future of their profession. Won't be easy, but can be done. That's were I will focus my efforts.

 

[kwyeewyk]

I am no expert on grazing or range land. I am pretty widely traveled especially for my age. And I have yet be on land inhabited by cattle that that doenst show signs of over grazings. I will include Canada to lesser degree and Mexico to a greater degree.

Is it possible that you only key in on overgrazed ground and well managed ground you just assume isn't grazed? Are you familiar with soils and ecological sites enough to know what the potential of all the ground you land on is and what the management history is that contributed to current conditions?