Grazing fees, the economics of elk and cattle

[BuzzH]

I am no expert on grazing or range land. I am pretty widely traveled especially for my age. And I have yet be on land inhabited by cattle that that doenst show signs of over grazings. I will include Canada to lesser degree and Mexico to a greater degree.

This ranch in Blaine County Montana was, IMO/E of looking at range conditions across 10 States, probably the best managed ranch I've seen.

Photos:

Wish I would have taken more pictures to illustrate better, but you can see there isn't much over grazing going on. In fact, I don't recall seeing any. Mix of state, BLM, and private.

Hunted it for many years and usually got distracted trying to figure out how they were managing and asking questions of the owners and hired hands. In a nutshell, what they were doing is just paying attention to details and kept the cattle moving around the uplands, simply mimicking bison. They put some thought into everything they did. I was talking to the owner one day and he showed me a culvert he put in because he happened to see a small brook trout washed up on the bank when he crossed the creek with his truck before he put the culvert in. I didn't think much about it at the time. Later I got to thinking, if a guy is going to buy a culvert, haul it out in the middle of nowhere, for a brook trout...pretty doubtful he's going to let his cattle trash the place. They managed for the benefit of everything and tried to keep the land whole, was pretty awesome. What a wonderful place to visit and hunt. They had it figured out and dialed as well as any ranching operation I've ever seen. It takes commitment and work, but its possible. Oh, and seeing a few hundred mule deer, 50+ bucks, a few hundred pronghorn, and some monster bull elk everyday was the norm. Along with about every other kind of wildlife that's found in that country. Also interesting, that ranch prohibited shooting coyotes.

 

[Trial153]

Is it possible that you only key in on overgrazed ground and well managed ground you just assume isn't grazed? Are you familiar with soils and ecological sites enough to know what the potential of all the ground you land on is and what the management history is that contributed to current conditions?

In study yes, have basic knowledge of soil composition and ecology. Well enough that I can recognize habitat that is stressed and over grazed.
And no, I am not done intensive historical studies on the places I visited however, it’s not difficult to put two into together when I see cattle on ranges that is overgrazed and it’s trickle down effect to local wildlife populations.

 

[rjthehunter]

Did influencers honestly get dragged into cattle grazing rights. Holy phuck!

Come on, they're profiting off of a public resource. Isn't that where the line is drawn for most folks?

 

[Trial153]

This ranch in Blaine County Montana was, IMO/E of looking at range conditions across 10 States, probably the best managed ranch I've seen.

Photos:

Wish I would have taken more pictures to illustrate better, but you can see there isn't much over grazing going on. In fact, I don't recall seeing any. Mix of state, BLM, and private.

Hunted it for many years and usually got distracted trying to figure out how they were managing and asking questions of the owners and hired hands. In a nutshell, what they were doing is just paying attention to details and kept the cattle moving around the uplands, simply mimicking bison. They put some thought into everything they did. I was talking to the owner one day and he showed me a culvert he put in because he happened to see a small brook trout washed up on the bank when he crossed the creek with his truck before he put the culvert in. I didn't think much about it at the time. Later I got to thinking, if a guy is going to buy a culvert, haul it out in the middle of nowhere, for a brook trout...pretty doubtful he's going to let his cattle trash the place. They managed for the benefit of everything and tried to keep the land whole, was pretty awesome. What a wonderful place to visit and hunt. They had it figured out and dialed as well as any ranching operation I've ever seen. It takes commitment and work, but its possible. Oh, and seeing a few hundred mule deer, 50+ bucks, a few hundred pronghorn, and some monster bull elk everyday was the norm. Along with about every other kind of wildlife that's found in that country. Also interesting, that ranch prohibited shooting coyotes.

That’s nice to see. I think that’s the exception and not the rule. However, I do think you more likely see properly managed grazing taking place on private property or de facto private property versus your average publicly leased allotment.

 

[BuzzH]

That’s nice to see. I think that’s the exception and not the rule. However, I do think you more likely see properly managed grazing taking place on private property or de facto private property versus your average publicly leased allotment.

They had all the leases within a huge geographic area and their State and Federal leases all looked the same as the rest of their private property. For the most part, the public wasn't even fenced.

IMO/E, it's all about attitude of the owners/lease holders. I would have given these folks the grazing for free and charged admission for other landowners to see what proper management looks like. I know their cattle were significantly heavier and higher quality just because of how they managed as well.

I'm with you, I've seen what crap management and crap grazing practices look like. Probably more critical of it than you are, and about the last person to be impressed with what many call "management". I was impressed, still am, and I've not hunted that place for close to 25 years.

 

[tormenter]

You want to see some classic overgrazing - Take a drive around Medicine Bow especially to the SE. I feel sorry for the land and the animals. Hard to imagine or believe millions of animals once roamed in waist high and above grasses.

 

[88man]

Did influencers honestly get dragged into cattle grazing rights. Holy phuck!

Yup and O&G and mining how convenient wind and solar were left out of the comment

 

[kwyeewyk]

In study yes, have basic knowledge of soil composition and ecology. Well enough that I can recognize habitat that is stressed and over grazed.
And no, I am not done intensive historical studies on the places I visited however, it’s not difficult to put two into together when I see cattle on ranges that is overgrazed and it’s trickle down effect to local wildlife populations.

I think your reply illustrates the point, it's easy to spot overgrazed ground, but how do you know that some of the good ground you've seen isn't actually grazed and you aren't aware because it doesn't look overgrazed? Understanding historic use is important to know if thresholds were crossed in the past that resulted in changed potential of current condition.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Yup and O&G and mining how convenient wind and solar were left out of the comment

"If i started another thread about renewable energy, oil and gas, mining, logging, etc almost any other private enterprise on a public resource - everyone on the inside of their respective tribe feels that they are entitled to a discount piece of public pie because they are more beneficial in their own eyes for one reason or another."

Whos comment are you refering to? Its not mine.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Grazing cattle on public land

Here is a piece of an article in the Billings Gazette about grazing: A crucial factor in these calculations, according to Arizona University Law School professor Jay Feller, is the relative cost of state and private grazing land. Federal grazing leases cost $1.35 per animal-unit month. That’s...

www.hunttalk.com

Did it better in 2012.

 

[gouch]

The real cost of grazing cattle on public land.

Hart Mountain refuge miracle: recovering cow-free for two decades

Study and photos show terrific regrowth of riparian vegetation- Hart Mountain National Antelope Refuge in southern Oregon had been grazed by cattle for many decades when in 1991 the cattle were rem…

www.thewildlifenews.com

At that time the antelope population on the refuge was suffering due to very poor fawn survival. The plan was to shoot coyotes from the air to help the fawns survive, but environmentalists were able to stop that plan. With no predator control, just the removal of cattle from the landscape, the fawn survival rate increased dramatically.

 

[Dakotakid]

It would be interesting to see the vertical fencing used on sheep or goats to target cheat grass and weeds.
Unfortunately, an army of hunters spread weeds every year but without even realizing it.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Grazing cattle on public land

Here is a piece of an article in the Billings Gazette about grazing: A crucial factor in these calculations, according to Arizona University Law School professor Jay Feller, is the relative cost of state and private grazing land. Federal grazing leases cost $1.35 per animal-unit month. That’s...

www.hunttalk.com

Did it better in 2012.

Still the same price. Ironic?

 

[BigHornRam]

Here's an actively grazed public land area that is also very popular for bow and rifle elk hunting. Pic from bow season a couple years ago.

 

[SAJ-99]

One thing that frustrates me about the conversation.

If we apply the same logic (raising this fee hurts/burns/risks profitability) of this to something else, everyone is in a different tribe. And in principle, most dont agree with the subsidy outside of their tribe

If i started another thread about renewable energy, oil and gas, mining, logging, etc almost any other private enterprise on a public resource - everyone on the inside of their respective tribe feels that they are entitled to a discount piece of public pie because they are more beneficial in their own eyes for one reason or anothed.

I don't think this is about the fee. They could double the fee and people would think it is too low. I have seen the same thing you did in the Breaks. My issue was always with management, or lack of. I wanted to see better rotation in leaving some public land ungrazed each year. I understand ranching is a difficult low margin business (this is the fault of downstream oligopolies in meat processing, but not the point of this thread). I don't think raising the fees to price out some rancher is a solution that benefits anyone, but agree that there can be improvements.

 

[Forkyfinder]

I don't think this is about the fee. They could double the fee and people would think it is too low. I have seen the same thing you did in the Breaks. My issue was always with management, or lack of. I wanted to see better rotation in leaving some public land ungrazed each year. I understand ranching is a difficult low margin business (this is the fault of downstream oligopolies in meat processing, but not the point of this thread). I don't think raising the fees to price out some rancher is a solution that benefits anyone, but agree that there can be improvements.

Wouldnt additional fees provide additional resources for education, enforcement, and management?

 

[Oak]

The facts, whether we like them or not, is that going after all grazing or increasing the fees are non-starters. We have the potential to make progress by focusing on specific resource conflicts, specific land health issues, specific bad actors among the permittees, and specific field offices and ranger districts that are doing nothing to address the previous items in this list.

I have a few examples of how resource conflicts which should not be controversial to address still get zero traction with the agencies, highlighting why I say the grazing programs are broken. Unfortunately, I'm sitting on a boring Zoom right now. I'll post them up another day.

 

[SAJ-99]

Wouldnt additional fees provide additional resources for education, enforcement, and management?

We have to live in reality. BLM and USFS are under resourced and budget constrained and always will be regardless of how much money they collect. I'm not even sure they get to use the money they collect now.

IRAct had adjustments to make sure all the energy stuff was done at competitive market rates.

 

[kwyeewyk]

Wouldnt additional fees provide additional resources for education, enforcement, and management?

Not when they can't even hire people for the multitude of currently open positions.

 

[Elkmagnet]

Still the same price. Ironic?

Kinda surprised myself. Thought they would have got it negotiated down by now.