FWP Commission to change Gardiner Elk hunting

[Big Fin]

This is an amendment submitted by Region 1 FWP Commissioner, Pat Tabor, to change one of the elk hunts in Region 3. That being to take away the bull elk permit in Unit 313 and make it a general season. This is an amendment to the agenda for the December 20th Commission Meeting. It is not in the agenda, rather in some of the ancillary stuff outside of that.

The hunt code is 313-45. Under this change, anyone still holding an elk tag could jump on their snowmobiles tomorrow, grab their muzzleloader, and smoke the remaining bulls that escaped the hunting pressure of archery and rifle season.

This was a huge yank in 2016/17 (?). We've already fought over this once.

Here is a link to comment on the Zoom call on the 20th - https://myfwp.mt.gov/fwpPub/mtg/decemberjointmeeting12202022


I don't see where you can email comments to a general mailbox, so here are the email address, if you want to comment via email rather than the Zoom meeting on the 20th:

commissionerregion1@mtfwp.org
commissionerregion3@mtfwp.org
commissionerregion2@mtfwp.org
commissionerregion4@mtfwp.org
commissionerregion5@mtfwp.org
commissionerregion6@mtfwp.org
commissionerregion7@mtfwp.org
Hank.Worsech@mt.gov

Here is a link to the amendment, which I copied below - https://fwp.mt.gov/binaries/content...gulations-for-2023-season-for-web-posting.pdf

Here is a copy of the amendment. Not sure which of his Region 1 "constituents" asked for the change, but I suspect it was his MOGA constituents more than Region 1 hunters.

Amendment to Adjustments to 2022 Big Game Regulations for 2023 Season

Submitted by Vice Chair Tabor Motion: I move the Fish and Wildlife Commission adopt the amendments to the license‐permit type quotas and quota ranges and hunting district legal descriptions as presented by the department in the coversheet and accompanying amendment sheet with the following amendment: Restore HD 313 to a general license five‐week general firearm season for Brow‐Tined Bull (BTB) elk.

Background: This comes about as I discussed in the August Commission meeting when the department disclosed that there are no longer biological concerns about elk populations in this district. That was a major reason for me proposing a decrease to the wolf quota for this district. The outfitting businesses like the rest of the businesses have been severely hurt due to the flooding. Several constituents reached out with this request, and it seems appropriate to restore opportunity back to the district.

FWP Response: This amendment would eliminate the 313‐45 Brow‐tined Bull Elk Permit during the last two weeks of the general firearm season and change the last two weeks of the general firearm season to allow a general elk license to be valid for Brow‐Tined Bull (BTB) elk. This would also have the effect of making the general elk license valid during the muzzleloader season for BTB elk as well. While potentially influencing the numbers and average age of bull elk in HD 313, the amendment will cause no biological harm to the elk population in HD 313.

Per FWP, this amendment will influence "the numbers and the average age of bull elk in HD 313." And, not influence them to more bull elk or more mature elk, rather fewer and younger bulls.

I hope you will all comment if this is of interest to you.

 

[El Jason]

FFS. Is he taking notes from the WY task force?

 

[rmyoung1]

The absolute LAST thing this hunting district needs. Thanks for the heads up, @Big Fin

I’ll reach out to my Gardiner guys who care. This would be a real setback for the Northern Herd in my opinion. On years like this one, they’d kill 500 bulls the last two weeks instead of roughly 50.

It also kind of galls me that they use flooding as an excuse to pound away at that elk herd. The NPS worked to get a new road between Gardiner and Mammoth in record time. It’s open already. To say that the town of Gardiner needs hunters to pound away in late Nov and early Dec is disingenuous at best.

 

[mtnkid85]

What a bummer for that unit, when winter hits the bulls come flooding out of there. Even when we get those early systems that move through, the elk get hammered over on that side.
Ive done a bit of that hammering myself, but Im happy to give them the space those last two weeks. Plus it makes for quite an experience for those tag holders who draw the 313-45 tag.

 

[Frequently Banned Troll]

I cannot think of a worse place to hunt elk these days. Such a shame. Might as wells just kill them all.

 

[Hem]

Word down my street the daughter of an acquaintance shot a 400 bull with the Gardiner tag this year.

 

[SAJ-99]

GG must not have filled his general elk tag.

 

[stoep]

Sent to Hank and my commissioner. Registered for the 20th. My newbie self was able to pull a six by out of 313 this year, which goes to show how much they got pushed down into easily accessible areas

 

[canadiantuxedo]

The outfitting businesses in the Southern paradise valley (both HDs 313 and 314) have not taken a hit "due to the flooding." In fact, this year, I have it on good authority that outfitters in the Tom Miner basin set revenue records. The deep snows pushed scores of bulls to the bottomland and at least one outfitter claimed to have taken 15 bulls a week during the general season. More gaslighting and more bad ideas from FWP.

 

[Big Fin]

I hope folks are thinking about the long-term consequences of this proposal and commenting. If we think the popularity of the "Heritage muzzleloader season" is growing fast now, wait until the Commission opens this area to a general tag. The thousands of hunters that used to apply for the Late Gardiner rifle hunt that was discontinued about ten years ago can now line up with their muzzleloader as these bulls try to make it to the wintering grounds around Daily Lake and Dome Mountain.

In a year like this, the impact on the bulls of that herd would be intense with and dramatic with rifles. Imagine if we could all go down there and shoot them with a muzzleloader. The current season structure is the only thing that protects the age class and number of bulls in this herd for the winter of 2022-23. And this proposal would remove that protection.

And if history is any indicator, two years after adopting of this proposal, when there are no mature bulls in the population, the local outfitting crowd will again show up at meetings to blame it on wolves, the same as happened when we shot the hell out of 2,000+ cow elk every winter from 1995-2002. And when we tried to change that, we were told how it would ruin the economy of Gardiner, as if shooting 15,000+ pregnant cow elk from that herd was beneficial and sustainable. But, there were folks lined up and willing to take you on a cow elk hunt if you had cash.

This proposal is like Groundhog Day, only it will hammer the bull segment of the population down to spikes and raghorns, rather than shooting cows. But, once the bulls get shot to hell and their is no more money to be made from shooting bulls, maybe they will propose to make it either-sex. And then blame it on wolves.

Hopefully you will get your comments in before the Commission meeting on the 20th.

 

[TheTone]

The outfitting businesses in the Southern paradise valley (both HDs 313 and 314) have not taken a hit "due to the flooding." In fact, this year, I have it on good authority that outfitters in the Tom Miner basin set revenue records. The deep snows pushed scores of bulls to the bottomland and at least one outfitter claimed to have taken 15 bulls a week during the general season. More gaslighting and more bad ideas from FWP.

Gotta kill them when you can, resource be damned

Reminds me of salmon fishing near me. We had a year where fish were absolutely stacked in a big run and back eddy. Outfitters were doing multiple trips per day with clients standing on the bank waiting their turn to get in the boat. Needless to say the harvest quota was met extremely fast and now you aren’t allowed to fish that run from a boat

 

[Big Fin]

Here is my comment, if it is helpful for anyone to use as a template.

Dear Commissioner Byorth and fellow FWP Commissioners (by copy):

A motion has been submitted for the December 20th FWP Commission meeting to change elk hunting in Hunting District 313, in Region 3, specifically hunt 313-45. The basis for that motion has been stated as helping outfitters who have been impacted by summer floods of 2022.

The Department response to that proposal is that changing this season will “influence” the age class and the number of bulls in the Hunting District. The Department did not state whether that "influence" will increase or decrease the age class or number of bulls. It would be helpful if the Department comment on the proposal would actually say which direction the “influence” will take the bull elk segment of this population. I suspect we can all agree that this proposed change will negatively decrease both the age class and the number of bulls in the Hunting District.

We’ve already spent huge amounts of resources and time in 2016-17 debating the current season structure, as a result of low bull numbers in this herd. Today, there are other factors that were not in play when the current season structure was adopted.

We now have a rapidly increasing “Heritage muzzleloader season” that is in its second year. Changing this to a general tag will add even more pressure on the resource than is likely being considered, especially in early winter years like 2022, when it would be very easy to take a mid-December bull with a muzzleloader.

Given the demand of this hunt when we had the “Late Gardiner” rifle bull tags, I think it is easy to predict that this muzzleloader hunt will become even more popular than ever, at least in early winters and in HD 313. The reason we had the Late Gardiner hunt on permit back in those days was to protect the bull age class and the bull numbers that were vulnerable to overharvest. That limited entry mechanism to protect these bulls does not exist if this amendment is adopted and the HD 313 hunt is converted to a general hunt. The proposed amendment will make HD 313 an unlimited hunt for bulls during the most vulnerable parts of December, via the new muzzleloader season.

If the Commission does not share my concern for the age class of bulls and the science that correlates overall herd health with diverse age class, or my concern that the total number of bulls will again plummet to where we had to implement the current season structure, then I would suggest the following protections.

A. Continue to keep this a limited entry hunt, with much higher quotas, possibly unlimited quota, but requiring a hunter to apply for it in the limited entry draw. And if drawn, the hunter is only allowed to hunt elk in this unit, similar to what was adopted for many of the central Montana elk units during the 2022 season structure meetings. By keeping this a limited entry hunt, the hunt can be specific to the season dates identified by that permit and I would ask that you keep those season dates as they currently are, avoiding the likelihood of intense harvest of vulnerable bulls by muzzleloader hunting in mid-December.​

​

B. Additionally, one of the proposals that was floated during the debates on the current season structure was to make the permit in HD 313 a “six-point or better" rule, thereby protecting some of the age class of the bull population. Such was adopted in British Columbia with success in some areas. Such a rule is not intended to increase the age class, rather to limit how far down the age class will erode and how many bulls will be removed under intense hunting pressure. I would ask that you consider such a change to protect the negative "influence" this proposed amendment would have on the age of bulls and the total number of bulls in this herd.​

I am asking you to oppose the current amendment that is before you to change the season type for elk hunting in Hunting District 313.

Sincerely,


Randy Newberg

 

[JBS]

Thank you for the heads up and template. I submitted my comment in opposition of the proposal. I suggested that if the biologists think a late season bull hunt is appropriate that it be a limited entry muzzleloader hunt with a limited number of permits.

 

[mtnkid85]

Here is my comment, if it is helpful for anyone to use as a template.

Thanks Randy, I modified it a bit a fired it off to everyone.

 

[Beignet]

I just sent Tabor an email asking to demonstrate some of the year over year financial hardships outfitters (specifically) have faced as a result of the flooding, and some more concrete evidence that these proposed changes will have a positive long term impact on the local economy, since that seems to be his justification for the changes.

I also asked what his constituents' contingency plan is once the unit is reduced to cows and spikes.

I'll give a few days, but don't expect a response as Tabor has never sent me one before. Plan to email the rest of the commissioners urging them to vote against this amendment without some more detailed justification.

 

[rmyoung1]

I hope people write and oppose. I’m not looking at the count last winter, but if I recall, the figures floated for mature bulls per 100 cows were dismal (like 4). No way this proposal should happen.

 

[Deleted member 52937]

I hope folks are thinking about the long-term consequences of this proposal and commenting. If we think the popularity of the "Heritage muzzleloader season" is growing fast now, wait until the Commission opens this area to a general tag. The thousands of hunters that used to apply for the Late Gardiner rifle hunt that was discontinued about ten years ago can now line up with their muzzleloader as these bulls try to make it to the wintering grounds around Daily Lake and Dome Mountain.

In a year like this, the impact on the bulls of that herd would be intense with and dramatic with rifles. Imagine if we could all go down there and shoot them with a muzzleloader. The current season structure is the only thing that protects the age class and number of bulls in this herd for the winter of 2022-23. And this proposal would remove that protection.

And if history is any indicator, two years after adopting of this proposal, when there are no mature bulls in the population, the local outfitting crowd will again show up at meetings to blame it on wolves, the same as happened when we shot the hell out of 2,000+ cow elk every winter from 1995-2002. And when we tried to change that, we were told how it would ruin the economy of Gardiner, as if shooting 15,000+ pregnant cow elk from that herd was beneficial and sustainable. But, there were folks lined up and willing to take you on a cow elk hunt if you had cash.

This proposal is like Groundhog Day, only it will hammer the bull segment of the population down to spikes and raghorns, rather than shooting cows. But, once the bulls get shot to hell and their is no more money to be made from shooting bulls, maybe they will propose to make it either-sex. And then blame it on wolves.

Hopefully you will get your comments in before the Commission meeting on the 20th.

There wouldn’t be any bulls left to shoot with a muzzleloader after general is over, especially on a year like this. Such a horrible idea for the health of the heard. I’ll definitely be commenting on this one, thanks for sharing. I believe they closed it down early for general in 16 or 17 due to a big snowstorm and lots of bulls getting shot. Boy were the outfitters pissed. I though this year was worse from a weather/bulls getting shot perspective and was surprised they didn’t shut it down early.

 

[Drake4]

Those poor outfitters.
This is one weekend during the general season this year, before the special draw permit. It was a bloodbath down there this year. Can’t imagine if it was open to general the last 2 weeks on a year like this still.

He’d kill every bull that came out of the Park if you gave him a chance.

 

[Gerald Martin]

If the stated reason for changing the season structure is to help outfitters who are negatively impacted by seasonal conditions then a change to benefit a VERY narrow segment of the public trust shareholders at the expense of the resource and the interests of other shareholders is a gross dereliction of the trustee duties of the commissioners.

These rules were implemented after public input at the request of a large segment of the public who were concerned about the over exploitation of bull elk in unit 313.

Crap like this that is continually shoved down the throats of Montana residents by the outfitter lobby is why I have come to view outfitters as parasites of the resource rather than partners in conservation.

 

[Jayce37]

I talked to the biologist at Gardiner this year. If I am not mistaken, he said that the mature bull to cow ratio was 3 mature bulls per 100 cows. He said it's not good at all. He followed that up with asking what our opinion on it was. He said there is two schools of thought. "Give me my two weeks of season back, the last two weeks being a draw has not improved the bull population at all so what's the point". The other school of thought is "Time to make the unit a draw unit, that's the only way to improve bull numbers and bull age class." Maybe it is finally time to give this herd a break. It could be an amazing draw unit if it went there. Or at least for the rifle season. Archery could stay general IMO