Future of elk hunting in the west on public land

[Hunting Wife]

I keep hearing how hunter numbers are down, but all I see around here in Montana are more and more hunters. 30 years ago we would get a mid week day off work and not see another hunter all day. Now you go hunting mid week and there are hunters everywhere. I think that 30 years ago people might hunt a few days, now they hunt for weeks and weeks, so while the total number of hunters might not have increased much, the number out on any given day certainly has.

I don’t doubt hunter numbers overall are declining. I just think the patterns of Hunter activity are changing. Yes, technology has made it easier for people to find those out-of-the-way places. But I think it has also enabled a lot of people to move to some of these more rural hunting states so we’ve seen big influxes of new residents coming from out of state almost universally across the west. And after reading about all the people coming to Montana to “quarantine”, I feel like that trend is just going to accelerate.

I think technology also allows people to come out and stay longer during the season. Particularly with bird hunters, it shocks me how many people I talk to who are coming and staying for anywhere from 3 weeks to two months. If something crops up at work, they take care of it remotely.

There’s also the changes to applications. It used to require much more cash layout up front to apply for big game tags. Lots of states have changed from requiring the full cost up front to just requiring a small application fee. That certainly lowers the bar for applications and helps people afford to throw their name in lots of draws in lots of states.

I don’t see any of these trends declining any time soon. Add to that the challenges of public access, diseases, habitat degradation and all the associated impacts to wildlife populations, increased disturbance, increased development, increased resource extraction on public land...I can’t see how we can maintain the level of opportunity we currently have without making significant changes to how we manage public lands and wildlife.

I fear the days of OTC tags may come to an end in my lifetime, and that will be really bad for the future of hunting.

 

[seeth07]

I fear the days of OTC tags may come to an end in my lifetime, and that will be really bad for the future of hunting

Idk about this. It would be interesting to see what hunter recruitment is in a state like Nevada compared to Colorado.

I say this because if you really think about it, I feel the otc system in Colorado actually hurts hunter recruitment. People save their points for I believe just 10 core trophy units and then apply for 2nd choices or rely on the otc tags. Have you ever experienced a CO archery or 2nd rifle hunt? Its crowded by western standards and success rates are low. Its hard to recruit new hunters in these units where you really have to work your ass off to kill an elk or deer.

With that said, here in Wisconsin hunter recruitment is not the greatest and we have some of the highest deer densities in the nation where I live. Each fall I try to get co-workers, family and friends kids over to my house for damn near guaranteed success hunt. I always get the "ya that would be awesome" response from them and then a week prior it's "sorry he has a football game Friday night and then basketball on Saturday". So maybe I'm wrong on this...

 

[BuzzH]

Idk about this. It would be interesting to see what hunter recruitment is in a state like Nevada compared to Colorado.

I say this because if you really think about it, I feel the otc system in Colorado actually hurts hunter recruitment. People save their points for I believe just 10 core trophy units and then apply for 2nd choices or rely on the otc tags. Have you ever experienced a CO archery or 2nd rifle hunt? Its crowded by western standards and success rates are low. Its hard to recruit new hunters in these units where you really have to work your ass off to kill an elk or deer.

Even harder to recruit hunters when it takes 10, 12, 20 years to draw a tag.

I totally disagree that OTC tags hurt recruitment, just the opposite IME.

 

[seeth07]

Even harder to recruit hunters when it takes 10, 12, 20 years to draw a tag.

I totally disagree that OTC tags hurt recruitment, just the opposite IME.

No, I get that having to wait to draw a tag or even the process of a draw hurts recruitment. I'm not pointing to that extreme end of the spectrum. Its why I stated that I would love to see the numbers between the states of Nevada and Colorado. Nevada is hard to draw tags but residents still have some opportunity (its not 10 years for a youth to wait out a tag draw to be able to go like you have noted).

Hunter recruitment is not retention though. On the recruitment end, most states are doing quite well. However, if you look at retention (i.e. how many new hunters are still hunting 5 years later) and its dismal statistics.

 

[BuzzH]

No, I get that having to wait to draw a tag or even the process of a draw hurts recruitment. I'm not pointing to that extreme end of the spectrum. Its why I stated that I would love to see the numbers between the states of Nevada and Colorado. Nevada is hard to draw tags but residents still have some opportunity (its not 10 years for a youth to wait out a tag draw to be able to go like you have noted).

Hunter recruitment is not retention though. On the recruitment end, most states are doing quite well. However, if you look at retention (i.e. how many new hunters are still hunting 5 years later) and its dismal statistics.

Right, because we give youth easy to get tags, easier opportunities, special seasons with no competition, etc. then reality sets in when they do have to either: 1. Wait for decades with everybody else once they don't have the youth option 2. draw lesser quality tags. 3. Hunt OTC units.

I don't have any problem with giving youth some better opportunities, etc. but I just think in many cases what happens is when little johnnie and little jane find out that its not as easy as their first couple experiences with youth tags, they don't want to hunt anymore. Further, when its not as easy for their parents, they don't want to put the time in to see their kids be successful anymore either.

I see it all the time in Montana and Wyoming...when kids can whack a doe off the road, the parents and youth are fine with it. Once it turns into work, they don't want to bother anymore...both the kids and parents.

I don't know that we're doing youth any favors by having all these youth only days, high quality youth only tags, etc.

None of that stuff existed when I started hunting Montana in 1979 as a youth hunter, I had the same regulations as everyone else. With the exception of the license fees, which were $2 for conservation license, and $2 each for deer and elk tags. I've never missed a hunting season since...

 

[seeth07]

Right, because we give youth easy to get tags, easier opportunities, special seasons with no competition, etc. then reality sets in when they do have to either: 1. Wait for decades with everybody else once they don't have the youth option 2. draw lesser quality tags. 3. Hunt OTC units.

I don't have any problem with giving youth some better opportunities, etc. but I just think in many cases what happens is when little johnnie and little jane find out that its not as easy as their first couple experiences with youth tags, they don't want to hunt anymore. Further, when its not as easy for their parents, they don't want to put the time in to see their kids be successful anymore either.

I see it all the time in Montana and Wyoming...when kids can whack a doe off the road, the parents and youth are fine with it. Once it turns into work, they don't want to bother anymore...both the kids and parents.

I don't know that we're doing youth any favors by having all these youth only days, high quality youth only tags, etc.

None of that stuff existed when I started hunting Montana in 1979 as a youth hunter, I had the same regulations as everyone else. With the exception of the license fees, which were $2 for conservation license, and $2 each for deer and elk tags. I've never missed a hunting season since...

That is a very interesting perspective that I have never really considered before and I sadly believe you are right. Thanks for that perspective on youth opportunities.

If this is indeed a correct assumption, the question then is how do we get youth past that transition? I don't think there is an easy answer for the western states. What about the mid-west states where your statement here doesn't apply? Opportunity and effort isn't the problem. Like the example I gave - I offer at least 3-5 chances every year to youth to come out behind my house and shoot a deer or duck every year. I'm lucky if 1 of them comes through. Its a gimmie with zero effort on the parents as I'm offering up all the work to mentor them - they just have to drive them up to my house. It just seems that sports and other family obligations get in the way, its a tough task!

 

[BuzzH]

That is a very interesting perspective that I have never really considered before and I sadly believe you are right. Thanks for that perspective on youth opportunities.

If this is indeed a correct assumption, the question then is how do we get youth past that transition? I don't think there is an easy answer for the western states. What about the mid-west states where your statement here doesn't apply? Opportunity and effort isn't the problem. Like the example I gave - I offer at least 3-5 chances every year to youth to come out behind my house and shoot a deer or duck every year. I'm lucky if 1 of them comes through. Its a gimmie with zero effort on the parents as I'm offering up all the work to mentor them - they just have to drive them up to my house. It just seems that sports and other family obligations get in the way, its a tough task!

I think you answered your own question....

Parents want their kids to do everything, have everything, and lack focus.

To give kids everything, parents sacrifice time/money and become a slave to their jobs, so they can buy their kids "things".

Growing up, my parents didn't really have the money to give us many "things", so what they gave us was their time. What we did with that time is hunt, fish, camp, and spend time outdoors. I don't remember hardly any of the "things" my parents bought for me growing up, but I can tell you about a boatload of hunting, fishing, and camping adventures. My parents gave us the best possible thing they ever could have, that being taking the time to take us hunting, fishing, and camping anytime we wanted to go...no questions asked.

IMO/E that is what instills the desire to continue to do those things like hunting and fishing into adulthood.

 

[seeth07]

IMO/E that is what instills the desire to continue to do those things like hunting and fishing into adulthood.

I again think you are right. That is spot on to the root of the outdoor retention problem.

 

[Roughwater]

Most states have only a limited # of NR tags. Therefore, it’s not possible to have increased NR pressure in those states. If anything, the new tools help to disperse pressure which I would think would be a net positive.

I agree. I don't see our access to good western hunting getting worse. But that don't mean it could not get worse for Residents or Nonresidents. But here are things that could make it worse: 1. States appropriating Federal lands. 2. Global warming. Probably plenty of others. But thank god for the RMEF! If you love to Elk hunt please become a member if you aren't.

This pandemic has caused issues. If something major happened right now to our country in addition to this pandemic it could cause problems that could make our concern for hunting seem trivial.

As to election outcomes I don't see that changing much. The fear people have of things changing a lot toward hunting due to an election has caused much more problems than the election outcome. Folks go on gun, powder, bullet, ammo, primer buying sprees and the system can't keep up. Next thing ya know you can't find ammo, bullets, powder or primers. So, when we can we buy in bulk if possible which don't really help things any. Right now good luck on finding any small pistol primers and the more popular handgun ammo is hard to find as well.

 

[Sytes]

As to election outcomes I don't see that changing much.

Agree. Every election the varying sides claim all guns will be seized or all land will be transferred…

 

[MTelkHuntress]

And after reading about all the people coming to Montana to “quarantine”, I feel like that tre

Shout out to Kelly Clarkson who came to quarantine at her "ranch" and continuously tries to buy out her neighbors who are in the block management program....therefore closing off that land as well.

As far as youth hunters transitioning, its definitely a complex issue. One of my relatives is in her last year as a youth hunter and just drew one of the youth mule deer tags down the Bitterroot. This isnt the first time she has drawn really good youth tags, but she never really has time or she would rather do other things than hunt. Which to me is disheartening because any hunter in Montana would have been ecstatic to have one of those tags. She had a great bull tag last year but only went hunting a couple times. I get you cant force someone to enjoy hunting, but I wonder if she had been given more time, if she would have liked it a little more, and maybe she will this year.
I would wonder also if success is weighed too much as a factor for someone to like hunting. My dad never got anything when I went with him when I was younger, but I loved every single minute being out there. At a young age, he would give me an elk call and tell me when to use it. I felt so dang cool with my little hoochie mama call I never called in anything big enough for him to shoot, but it was still rewarding.

 

[Shangobango]

I would wonder also if success is weighed too much as a factor for someone to like hunting. My dad never got anything when I went with him when I was younger, but I loved every single minute being out there. At a young age, he would give me an elk call and tell me when to use it. I felt so dang cool with my little hoochie mama call I never called in anything big enough for him to shoot, but it was still rewarding.

I think you are on to something. It may be a sign of the times.

Some of my best memories of hunting were on "unsuccessful" hunts with my grandpa and uncles and more recently my son. I hope if I have rubbed off in anyway on my son when it comes to hunting and fishing it is not to always measure success by the critters you bring home, but to instead measure success by the memories and experiences you take with you from the hunts.

That is easier said than done in real time though. I find myself pretty dismayed at times because of lack of sightings or blown opportunities. That dismayed feeling seems to last for shorter periods the older I get.

 

[beginnerhunter]

How to improve/secure future elk hunting for residents:

1) Increase casual eastern hunter #s in order to maintain public support for hunting in general.
2) Limit nonresident tag #s and/or make them very expensive
3) Convince nonresidents to invest in conservation funding and public land access in the west (join RMEF, BHA, call legislators), despite not having much chance to enjoy it.

Done.

Step 1 is absolutely necessary. Step 2 is happening anyway. Step 3 might prove difficult. Tho I'd argue the hunting media platforms help keep the aspirations alive.

 

[SaskHunter]

I think an additional factor playing into the crowded public land is the access to private. From personal experience, landowners are in general more reluctant to let hunters on their land as they were 10 years ago. I keep hearing of lands that were accessible to hunters back in the day, where the landowner would let hunters on, which is now owned by someone who won't allow access (which is fine, their land, their prerogative).

Dwindling private access drives hunters away from the sport and/or congregates the remaining hunters in the same areas. For a lot of hunters, it's much easier to apply in western states and have a better quality hunt, than hunt eastern states and provinces where access is extremely limited and hunt quality low at best.

 

[joelweb]

Elk numbers are down some places; they are through the roof in others. I think elk hunting can be pretty darn awesome right now if you track the trends, get a tag, and be mobile.

 

[mtmuley]

As far as youth recruitment, a kid either has the desire, or they don't. I wanted my kids to be hard core hunters like their Dad. They aren't. At first I was really disappointed. It's not something you can force a kid into. But, I will say, as they grow older and can make their own decisions, I see a spark of interest coming back. mtmuley

 

[406dn]

I gave my son every chance to be a hard core hunter. He always made good grades,, so I never thought twice about pulling him out of school for various hunting trips. He killed his first elk when he was in maybe eighth grade or ninth. He killed several nice mule deer while in high school. He and I went pheasant hunting for a long weekend starting before he could actually hunt. I bet it's been ten years since he has hunted. He does enjoy fishing.

You can't push a rope. There is a lot about hunting that is hard work,,often not immediately rewarded. My passion to hunt is far greater than was my father's. He had pretty much quit before I was old enough to hunt with him. Face it not everyone enjoys getting up hours before dawn in lousy weather, just on the prospect of filling a tag.

 

[mtmuley]

IMy passion to hunt is far greater than was my father's.

Mine also. I remember waking him up to go. He did get serious once in awhile and we loaded the horses to head out. We hunted some private ranches close to home that bordered FS. If I wasn't at the truck when Dad went home, he left me. I hiked to the nearest ranch house and called home for a ride. On a rotary phone, party line. mtmuley

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

As far as youth recruitment, a kid either has the desire, or they don't. I wanted my kids to be hard core hunters like their Dad. They aren't. At first I was really disappointed. It's not something you can force a kid into. But, I will say, as they grow older and can make their own decisions, I see a spark of interest coming back. mtmuley

I think your spot on. I hunted with my dad all the time as a very young kid, then in high school cared less about it. Through college I went occasionally. Now, over the last 6 years or so since college the passion for hunting has been sparked more than ever. I think a large part of it is that its the most quality time I ever spend with my dad. I think partly I know with him being in his mid 60's those days of hiking way back in the mountains are limited. That makes me appreciate them even more.

 

[MTLabrador]

I think a large part of it is that its the most quality time I ever spend with my dad. I think partly I know with him being in his mid 60's those days of hiking way back in the mountains are limited. That makes me appreciate them even more.

Same for me. When I was about 13 my dad took a different job and a big pay cut for the opportunity to spend a lot more time with my sister and I, and I am eternally in his debt for that.

I’m planning on a Wyoming wilderness elk hunt with llamas (he hates horses after a few trips to the ER) next year to try to pay him back for all the hunting opportunities he missed because he was slowed down by me as a kid.