Future of elk hunting in the west on public land

[Deleted member 28227]

I've always thought it would be really interesting if western states would cross reference their databases.

My assumption is that in say 2000 you had a lot more individual hunters. Each hunter only applying and hunting in 1 or 2 states.
I think now there are actually many fewer hunters but those hunters are applying all over.

This spring I applied for 25 tags. Wonder how many folks were doing that pre internet apps.

More and more I suspect the west may be the exact same as the East, the data might just imply something different because agencies aren't looking at "how" hunters are applying and how that's changing over time.

 

[seeth07]

I’ll admit I’m mostly familiar with Wyoming, but we set new record app numbers each year, regardless of tag numbers. Bottom line, interest in western hunting is absolutely not on the decline.

It's not sustainable though. Especially in true PP states like CO for example. Many people once they cash in on their points are not doing it again or just for building 1 to 3 points.

Eventually people will be discouaged and understand the money they are wasting to just chase dream units they can never catch up to. App numbers in some states will peak here and then decline.

 

[44hunter45]

From Outdoor Life : "Hunter numbers have steadily declined since. We lost 2.2 million hunters between 2011 and 2016 alone, according to the National Survey of Hunting, Fishing, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation, a report issued by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. In 2016, just 11.5 million people hunted.".

Full article here: We suck at recruiting hunters

Google "total number of hunters in U.S. trends" and the results are rather alarming.

I am sure someone will say this thread is not about hunting all over the U.S., but it kinda is. Without turning these numbers around hunting as we experience it now will likely not last. I think we need numbers to sustain the current model of "North American Wildlife Conservation" that we all love to talk about.

IMHO - The largest hurdle to R3 is the point system Ponzi scheme. While it is possible to to get an OTC "meat" tag in most western states, the industry only promotes glory hunts, and that means glory tags.

Google hunting videos and you are not going to find too many on putting a cow or doe in the freezer.

 

[rwc101]

I think it would be dope if Randy did a season of cow/doe/0-3 point draw hunts. Would probably hurt viewership though.

 

[seeth07]

IMHO - The largest hurdle to R3 is the point system Ponzi scheme. While it is possible to to get an OTC "meat" tag in most western states, the industry only promotes glory hunts, and that means glory tags.

Google hunting videos and you are not going to find too many on putting a cow or doe in the freezer.

Yeah no doubt. And the reality is that a person can hunt elk for a week every year and not just hunt cows but hunt with the potential for some monster elk. The hurdle is knowledge and cash though for this to happen. A person really needs a detailed game plan in order to get higher quality elk opportunities year after year. It also means forking over 1k plus each year just in elk apps.

 

[madtom]

It's not sustainable though. Especially in true PP states like CO for example. Many people once they cash in on their points are not doing it again or just for building 1 to 3 points.

Eventually people will be discouaged and understand the money they are wasting to just chase dream units they can never catch up to. App numbers in some states will peak here and then decline.

That’s not impossible, but wouldn’t a decrease in apps make the tags easier to draw?

Too much uncertainty to make an educated prediction when you start talking that far into the future.

 

[Shangobango]

IMHO - The largest hurdle to R3 is the point system Ponzi scheme. While it is possible to to get an OTC "meat" tag in most western states, the industry only promotes glory hunts, and that means glory tags.

Google hunting videos and you are not going to find too many on putting a cow or doe in the freezer.

I haven't been involved with western hunting nearly long enough to have a thoroughly informed opinion on point systems and their effects on recruitment. With the number of apps submitted this year in a lot of western states though....

As far as the hunting industry only promoting glory hunts and glory tags, I think that is spot on. But for someone like me who isn't interested in glory tags but finding a few areas in a few States that I can hunt over and over and get to know well enough to negate some of the mediocrity of those easier to draw areas , the emphasis on glory tags may actually help me.

 

[Shangobango]

I think it would be dope if Randy did a season of cow/doe/0-3 point draw hunts. Would probably hurt viewership though.

Shoot I'd watch. I'd even volunteer to be a guest hunter. The more game meat in my freezer the better I feel about my life.

 

[Shangobango]

I've always thought it would be really interesting if western states would cross reference their databases.

My assumption is that in say 2000 you had a lot more individual hunters. Each hunter only applying and hunting in 1 or 2 states.
I think now there are actually many fewer hunters but those hunters are applying all over.

This spring I applied for 25 tags. Wonder how many folks were doing that pre internet apps.

More and more I suspect the west may be the exact same as the East, the data might just imply something different because agencies aren't looking at "how" hunters are applying and how that's changing over time.

That is a very good point that I hadn't even considered.

 

[madtom]

I think it would be dope if Randy did a season of cow/doe/0-3 point draw hunts. Would probably hurt viewership though.

Or later tank the draw odds for those hunts when people saw how fun it is

 

[Gerald Martin]

I think it would be dope if Randy did a season of cow/doe/0-3 point draw hunts. Would probably hurt viewership though.

He already does a majority of 0-3 point hunts.

If people want to hunt cows/does, it shouldn’t take a hunting show telling them about it to see the difference in draw odds between antlerless and either sex tags.

 

[Wildabeest]

the industry only promotes glory hunts

Every industry promotes glory and next to impossible outcomes. Case in point...

 

[Fremont15]

We are in the golden age of elk hunting if you ask me!

 

[Deleted member 28227]

It's not sustainable though. Especially in true PP states like CO for example. Many people once they cash in on their points are not doing it again or just for building 1 to 3 points.

Eventually people will be discouaged and understand the money they are wasting to just chase dream units they can never catch up to. App numbers in some states will peak here and then decline.

Looking specifically a CO OTC, these are my personal questions.

We have tons of people moving hear each year, how does that effect resident hunting numbers. Are most resident hunters natives or long residents 10+ years, what % just got here from somewhere else, will those new arrivals stick with OTC hunting in CO.

Non resident hunters, how many come year after year, what % are 1 and done. Is CO cycling through lots of different NR who just come here once?

Demographics, what age groups are hunting? What will the median age look like for CO elk in 15 years?

 

[rwc101]

He already does a majority of 0-3 point hunts.

If people want to hunt cows/does, it shouldn’t take a hunting show telling them about it to see the difference in draw odds between antlerless and either sex tags.

People shouldn't need a video from Randy on how to draw tags, but it does help people get interested and draw tags.

 

[Sytes]

My assumption is that in say 2000 you had a lot more individual hunters. Each hunter only applying and hunting in 1 or 2 states.
I think now there are actually many fewer hunters but those hunters are applying all over.

I believe the vast majority of hunters in MT, WY, ID, UT, CO are intrastate. I believe a few more than past years are traveling to bordering States however, those posting on hunt forums are a bit more involved, thus more likely to travel.

Average family income, vacation time, and family obligations tend to keep hunters in reasonable drive distance from home. Figuring resident vs non resident expense it really crafts a specialty based activity. Especially in States mentioned... little need to go elsewhere.

Maybe the exception would be pronghorn?

Meh, my two coppers...

 

[BuzzH]

As to the OP, I think it depends a lot on where you hunt.

For instance, where I used to hunt elk in Montana its not nearly as good as it was in the late 80's-2000...not even close. There is a price to pay for $20 OTC Resident tags, ample public land, vast increase in lions, bears, and wolves, shitty management by the MTFWP, a million plus people living in Montana now, youth being able to shoot cow elk, etc. etc.

However in other parts of Montana, if you have access to good private land, or can get through certain private lands to landlocked public, probably never been better.

But, as a broad statement, I would say that elk hunting is not going to get any better than it is right now. Lots of reasons for that, a big one is that the current land management trends favor grazing more than browsing. Much like how the range conditions in the 50's-through the late 70's favored mule deer more, we're at that point with elk right now, IMO/E.

I agree that in the past, there were more places where you could more or less have an area to yourself. There were lots of traditional elk hunting camps where families or small groups of friends historically hunted year after year. There were lots of unwritten "rules" about not interfering or infringing on surrounding camps, drainages, etc. Those traditions are all but gone. If there are elk to be had on public ground, someone else knows about it, and the only "rule" now is who gets there quickest and kills it first. There is a basic lack of etiquette when it comes to public land hunting. Back in the day, if you took someone to a good public land spot for deer, elk, grouse, waterfowl, whatever...it went without saying you just didn't go back without, at the very least, asking the person that showed you the spot. Nothing sacred anymore, now people don't ask, and the assumption is if you show them a spot on public, they are not only entitled to go back anytime they want, but also drag a few friends along too.

Its just a change in the mind-set and IMO, not for the better.

But, elk hunting is pretty good right now, lots of opportunity to do it in particular if you don't mind shooting cow elk. If you're a resident of a good western state, its also good for bulls.

I think that we have plateaued and/or on a decline in hunt quality and total elk populations and opportunity.

Its getting tougher every year for me to get 3 elk tags in Wyoming...

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I believe the vast majority of hunters in MT, WY, ID, UT, CO are intrastate. I believe a few more than past years are traveling to bordering States however, those posting on hunt forums are a bit more involved, thus more likely to travel.

Average family income, vacation time, and family obligations tend to keep hunters in reasonable drive distance from home. Figuring resident vs non resident expense it really crafts a specialty based activity. Especially in States mentioned... little need to go elsewhere.

Maybe the exception would be pronghorn?

Meh, my two coppers...

I wonder if that is perhaps generational?

Most of the hunters I talk to 20s-40s hunt multiple states.

Over 40% of CO elk hunters are NR. If you told me 50% of the resident hunters moved to the state within the last 5 years I wouldn’t be surprised.

Honestly, I’m one of 3 natives at my 65+ person company and I’ve never met a hunter in the parking lot or trailhead in CO that is a resident and was born here. Small sample size but it’s interesting. Contrast that to MT, I got some weird looks driving around ekalaka mt with region 6 plates let alone out of state plates... so

 

[Hilljackoutlaw]

This does nothing for helping me understand this. Why even post?

I would love to understand exactly how I connect elk hunting and the political voting this November. There isn't a hunting political party. It's also very hard to get info on where a politican stands in hunting issues. What should I be looking for.

I was just bumping your question hoping politic man would answer you.

 

[44hunter45]

He already does a majority of 0-3 point hunts.

@Gerald Martin , I'm not trying to run down @Big Fin. Randy's content is the best there is in this regard. Randy's state by state breakdowns are really good. His opinion of point schemes is clearly communicated while he explains how to work within that system.

His episode with you, your sons, and @JohnCushman is a favorite in our house. My granddaughter and I have watched that one many times. It demonstrates how most of us came to hunting, and I love that.

Randy's content is our only outdoor viewing. It's been particularly hard to find video role models for my 11 Y.O. granddaughter in the hunting space. Again @Big Fin shines here with Tracey Pettit, Holly Heyser, Kara Landolfini, etc .

All this sets Randy apart in the industry.

If people want to hunt cows/does, it shouldn’t take a hunting show telling them about it to see the difference in draw odds between antlerless and either sex tags.

I agree.

I'm thinking of that newbie who has no idea of where to start. They open the proclamation and try to understand the regs and their head explodes. All they need to do is drop $149 on goHunt insider and their problems will be solved? The agencies are not making it easy. If they did, there would be no market for goHunt. I'm happy goHunt is kicking butt. But they are filling a gap the agencies have created.

I have recently been having DM conversations about Idaho's greenfield cow hunts. Why? Because the Idaho proclamation seems to be written to intentionally confuse folks. What little knowledge I have on the subject is free. It's worth every penny you pay for it. But if it gets someone out in the field, I'm OK with that.

We write from experience. Putting yourself in the mindset of the newbie is hard. 30 years ago, I bought an Idaho NR combo tag in the mail, drove to Idaho and packed in to a spot on a topo which had light green dots. I shot a spike on that trip. Thirty years ago that was not all that remarkable. I think it might be today. I grew up hunting, so I had the skills. There are more hurdles to the first time hunter today. I think the DIY public land hunt, particularly a backpack hunt, is varsity level stuff.

I'd rather see a new hunter be successful on an antlerless hunt than pine away trying to draw a glory tag.