Future of elk hunting in the west on public land

[D_Walt]

I think what wllm1313 said in post 21 about more hunters submitting multiple apps is likely the biggest driver of the huge app increases the last several years. For instance, I apply for points or tags in 6 western states for a total of something like 23 apps or points. Half the guys on this forum probably do the same. If it wasn’t so easy to find the info and complete apps online I would put in for maybe two or three hunts, or I might just buy an OTC elk tag in Colorado and call it done. The genie isn’t going back in the bottle, if you’re a nonresident and you want to hunt regularly you better be building points and playing the game or fork out big $ for private LO tags.
The economy had been on a great 7 or 8 year run until Covid sucker punched us. If we go into a multi year recession I think you’ll see a big decrease in The number of guys who spend $1000 - 1500+ per year just on apps/points. To that end I think the election this fall will have a big impact on future hunting opportunities; I am of the opinion that if we have a change in the White House it will be very bad economically for our country. Without the level of financial freedom we have enjoyed for most of a decade, expensive hobbies like out of state hunting will see a major decrease.

 

[Big Fin]

Is this a topic that has been discussed much on the larger hunting shows and do hunting content creators have a certain responsibility to address the potential Issue?

I can't speak for other platforms, but it is discussed all the time with our operation. We do feel a responsibility to be a benefit to the cause. Given our WHY has the end desire ".......to create advocates for that cause," we feel we have to show how doable this is. Advocates don't sit on the couch and watch football all hunting season.

I might be wrong, but I feel to have more advocates, you need more participants. To have more participants you need more information. To get people to be interested in the information you need a bit of inspiration. That's the premise our content is built on.

Every platform we produce has to be part of our goal. Some content and platforms are heavy on information, some on inspiration, some a mix of both, and all woven with a feeling of relatability.

As for the hunts we show, there are plenty of 0-3 point units. One of our most popular hunts last year was a Montana OTC elk hunt. This year we have WY General elk, Idaho OTC elk, Idaho OTC deer, Montana General deer, Arizona deer that often has leftovers, Nevada archery deer on fifth choice that some years has had leftovers.

Yes, we have our share of glory tags. But, the show is a view of hunting through my eyes, where hunting is shared with family and friends, with a no real desire to only hunt glory tags or huge animals. The people and the places drive my interest. Whatever tag it is, I'm excited, mostly because of who/where and the memories that will come from that.

I've been applying in multiple states for 25 years. Not because I only want glory tags, but because I'm attracted to landscapes, their history, and the people. The best way for me to experience those places and people is through hunting. I'm a hunter, so hunting is the experience that gives me the deepest immersion of places and people that interest me. I have zero interest to travel to places as the traditional tourist. It would be artificial to who I am. Let me travel there to hunt and experience those places, history and people through hunting, and I start gutting interested.

Those who think this platform is about glory tags and big animals are overthinking the manner in which we approach it.

Marcus, Michael, and other young people are part of a designed plan to add different perspectives that hopefully create more advocates from people who can relate to them but find me completely out of tune.

Above is a short excerpt of a lengthy plan to create advocates for the cause by being relatable and creating content that mixes information and inspiration across different audiences.

We do respect the blessing we've been provided and try to balance how our content might play a part. It is why all crew is expected to be involved in conservation. It is why we do videos about volunteers. It is why we do conservation films that are money losers. We want a bigger pie. We don't believe the path forward is accepting an eventuality of a smaller pie and fighting over crumbs. We feel the path forward is a bigger pie that can only happen in this complex society if we have more advocates.

Everyday, as in my last three days at Total Archery Challenge, I engage with the audience, seeking feedback on how well our approach is working. We have our critics, we make some mistakes. When I'm all done I suspect some will make their assessment of whether we did a good job of accepting the responsibility that comes with the blessing of these platforms. Regardless of that assessment each might make, I'm completely confident that we try our best.

Are these the good old days of elk hunting? Yes, if you make it that way.

 

[rwc101]

For clarity, my post was about an idea for a season that I thought would be cool and would watch. It somehow got turned into what content people "should" need.

 

[SAJ-99]

Hey everyone,

I apologize in advance for a bit of a rant. As I sit here i'm thinking about all the posts I have read where everyone is talking about "the old days and how much better they were" I wonder were they better or does everyone always just think the old days are better? That very well may be true and I'm not here to debate that too much. However, nowadays it seems that there are no units or hunt areas that are still undiscovered but I continue to find quality elk hunting in areas that are "high pressure". Additionally there are almost yearly additions of land via the RMEF or some similar organization. It is worrisome to me though that every year we also see more out of state hunters in obscure places, likely via due to tools such as Gohunt and Onx. One has to wonder with the advent of Youtube, social media, and hunting apps making western public land hunting so visible what the future will look like? Every year there are an uncountable number of new hunting shows on Youtube posting their elk hunt out west. My question is, are all of these hunting shows in the end going to have a negative or positive effect on the quality of elk hunting on public land out west? I can see pros and cons, on one hand there are more hunters but on the other hand more hunters equates to more money to conservation and potentially land purchases via land boards or RMEF. Is this a topic that has been discussed much on the larger hunting shows and do hunting content creators have a certain responsibility to address the potential Issue?

If I understand the original post correctly, there may be two topics merged into one. One topic is promoting hunting and the other is ensuring there are good places to hunt. They are tied together, but not necessarily directly linked. While even if hunting is declining (debatable in its own right, depending on measurement), Americans use of the outdoors continues to increase. It should be our priority to work with other groups that utilize these wild spaces to ensure they will exist for future generations. As for promoting hunting and ensuring it maintains some type of minimum standard from a moral, ethical, and economic perspective is a topic best addressed by others. It is a difficult subject. But I do agree there are no "secret spots". You run into other hunters all the time, and running into one is better then 21. But it doesn't mean it is not still enjoyable. And I love out of state hunters. Their willingness to pay NR prices keeps my resident license low.

 

[MTelkHuntress]

I just really hope the future involves more hunters getting involved, such as going to the meetings held every year. This was the first year I started going to some of the management meetings held by FWP and I was often the only woman and one of the youngest people attending. Involvement is key.
Cow elk hunting in Montana has been great, lots of opportunity and tags.
I also think "great elk hunting" is defined differently by different people. To me, its being able to get into elk almost every time you go, because that's what I grew up with. Lately, I'm lucky to see a bull twice a season, so of course I would say that elk hunting hasn't been great. But I know others that get a bull every year, so they would say that it's been just fine, although they still talk about the good old days.

I agree with Buzz that private land hunting seems to be really great right now as well.

I guess for me, I feel that if we have the opportunity to make elk hunting better, why not do it? Why just settle when there are steps to make it as great as it can be. Change is always inevitable, but it doesnt necessarily have to be negative. It's also important to recognize that there was a time when big game populations were pretty decimated....those were probably not considered "good old days".
I definitely think these social media hunters have a responsibility to at least mention conservation, I'd rather hear about that than the trick shot some clout chaser used on a bull that he wounded.

 

[geetar]

I think it would be dope if Randy did a season of cow/doe/0-3 point draw hunts. Would probably hurt viewership though.

My viewership would probably go up. It’d be something no one else is doing and I’d love it.

 

[ida homer]

I think it's the golden age of elk in Wyoming. Mule deer and pronghorn, not so much.

Same here. So many good otc units right now!

 

[Sytes]

...the old days and how much better they were" I wonder were they better or does everyone always just think the old days are better?

I know for myself, old days were better. Our little group of 5 were pretty tight. Father and son, that fathers buddy, myself and another.
One father passed away. One buddy took a station OCONUS. The other moved east and proud father endeared to his family. That leaves myself and my hunt partner.
Those were the good ole days.

The W-NW MT wolf expansion pushed out our good ole day locations. We were acclimated w/ the griz/black bears and lions but the wolves transformed the ungulate landscape faster than we adapted...
Prior, we had our locations, a couple of us would do a fishing trip to the areas and scout for a couple nights. From there, we set our hunt camp. What an awesome time!
With that group size at least a couple of us made the harvest event... pack outs, etc.

Now? We've spread apart, passed away, etc. I really don't have a start point at my age to meet new people and build that camaraderie of the past.
I think my partner days are numbered as he is closing in on that 70... I find myself solo more and more...

And thats why I believe the, Good ole days were much better.

Buzz hit on the physical aspect.

 

[shoots-straight]

Can you elaborate more? What do you mean by this?

It's common knowledge that the Republican platform of the past has been that of Transferring the public lands to the states that they reside in. That is a direct assault on hunting, fishing, hiking etc.

Many of your elected officials wish to legislate big game biology rather than let the professionals us their expertise and the best science available.

There's a number of people that hold office or running that will sell out the sportsman and woman of those states by commercializing the activities. Ask those that you vote for where they stand on important issues before casting your vote.

Some potential candidates don't want to see anymore lands in public hands. Some wish it all private. So land board positions are vital to sportsman.

We do have the 2nd Amendment to protect our gun rights, we have nothing to protect our public lands.

 

[seeth07]

It's common knowledge that the Republican platform of the past has been that of Transferring the public lands to the states that they reside in. That is a direct assault on hunting, fishing, hiking etc.

Many of your elected officials wish to legislate big game biology rather than let the professionals us their expertise and the best science available.

There's a number of people that hold office or running that will sell out the sportsman and woman of those states by commercializing the activities. Ask those that you vote for where they stand on important issues before casting your vote.

Some potential candidates don't want to see anymore lands in public hands. Some wish it all private. So land board positions are vital to sportsman.

We do have the 2nd Amendment to protect our gun rights, we have nothing to protect our public lands.

Ok but how about the Democrat that is for keeping the great lakes wolf of the endangered species act? How about the one that wants to put a law in that removes my ability to use my thermal scope to hunt? To remove my right to own an AR? Its a tough choice but always it has been the lesser evil to vote for the republicans that unfortunately are neutral at best on the public land stance.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Its getting tougher every year for me to get 3 elk tags in Wyoming...

Were you grinning while you typed this?

 

[shoots-straight]

Ok but how about the Democrat that is for keeping the great lakes wolf of the endangered species act? How about the one that wants to put a law in that removes my ability to use my thermal scope to hunt? To remove my right to own an AR? Its a tough choice but always it has been the lesser evil to vote for the republicans that unfortunately are neutral at best on the public land stance.

Even though I quoted the R platform, that doesn't mean they have to sign it. Do ask questions on all issues. The Dems lost both the house and Senate by institution gun control measures. I'm wondering if they learned their lesson on that. Background checks are one thing.

Whomever wants to legislate biology beware.

 

[Shangobango]

Even though I quoted the R platform, that doesn't mean they have to sign it. Do ask questions on all issues. The Dems lost both the house and Senate by institution gun control measures. I'm wondering if they learned their lesson on that. Background checks are one thing.

This is why I feel it is a good thing on most issues for Congress to be controlled by one party and the Presidency to be controlled by the other. Maybe some day there will be a viable political party that actually checks most of the boxes beside the issues I care about. Right now I feel like there is no party that truly represents me.

ESA issues are one of the situations where I am left shaking my head because the side that doesn't want to follow the science is real quick to tout the science behind other issues. Either accept science are don't.

Both parties are equally guilty of that depending on the issue. Always leaves me mind boggled.

 

[huntandfly]

Whomever wants to legislate biology beware.

Perfect for example of this being the proposed ballot-induced reintroduction of wolves in Colorado. There is no party that stands with sportsmen and conservationists on every single issue. The best we can do is vote for the folks that align with the majority of our views and advocate to them on the issues they don’t agree with us on.

As for increasing tag applications, I firmly believe the 2 most prominent factors causing this are: #1 the increase in hunting content available on various platforms (YouTube being the primary one) and #2 the ability to access massive amounts of information via platforms like GoHunt in ways that would have once been nearly impossible (or at least a lot more time consuming). It’s all about ease of access.

Edit: to clarify, I don’t think the increase in applications is a bad thing

 

[thusby]

I always wonder how many things in life need a strong opinion.

 

[Luke_with_a_lab]

I didn't expect to this post to get this much input. I am 30 years old and feel that hunting has changed drastically just in my lifetime. Back when I was in high school everyone hunted and most people could get on private land or at least walk across it to access landlocked public. Now most of the large tracts of private land are owned by an out of state person or leased to an outfitter, leading to further concentration of hunters on public. Unfortunately it seems that landownership and hunting are becoming as polarizing as all the politics you guys are speaking about. I think the future really has to be private conservation groups, RMEF, etc, working on land purchases and easements that continue improving access and conserving important winter ranges/ corridors. If we can do this im optimistic that even with increased hunting pressure (elk especially) everyone can find good opportunities.

In terms of content creators I feel that Randy and his crew are among the best at using their platform for good. Every year you see them at RMEF banquets or other conservation events stressing the importance of public land and raising money that goes to conservation. Unfortunately there are other creators out there that I think conservation means very little to.... mostly what I would call the old guard of hunting shows that have been around a long time.

 

[wyoelkfan15]

Personally I've experienced the onset of out of state hunters flocking to the areas i grew up hunting. I was privelaged to live near several deer and elk areas that every year a resident could go in and buy an over the counter leftover doe or cow tag. Lately those areas sell out in the initial draw and I tend to see three non resident plates for every Wyoming one.

The cow area my hunting group has consistently pulled the last ten years went from 100% to 30% in less than two years with no reduction in tags. I don't subscribe to services like Go Hunt, I think they cheapen the experience and make it far to easy for people to find opportunities without having to put ANY effort in. As a kid I used to export the drawing odds published in PDFs manually into excel to find the areas with highest draw odds, I think those efforts are lost on folks now.

As far as social media productions I've stopped watching multiple platforms because it's obvious the creators are only in it for dollar bills. @Big Fin and several others have true messages of conservation that resound truthfully with sportsmen and women.

 

[Irishman]

From Outdoor Life : "Hunter numbers have steadily declined since. We lost 2.2 million hunters between 2011 and 2016 alone, according to the National Survey of Hunting, Fishing, and Wildlife-Associated Recreation, a report issued by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. In 2016, just 11.5 million people hunted.".

Full article here: We suck at recruiting hunters

Google "total number of hunters in U.S. trends" and the results are rather alarming.

I am sure someone will say this thread is not about hunting all over the U.S., but it kinda is. Without turning these numbers around hunting as we experience it now will likely not last. I think we need numbers to sustain the current model of "North American Wildlife Conservation" that we all love to talk about.

I keep hearing how hunter numbers are down, but all I see around here in Montana are more and more hunters. 30 years ago we would get a mid week day off work and not see another hunter all day. Now you go hunting mid week and there are hunters everywhere. I think that 30 years ago people might hunt a few days, now they hunt for weeks and weeks, so while the total number of hunters might not have increased much, the number out on any given day certainly has.

 

[Shangobango]

I keep hearing how hunter numbers are down, but all I see around here in Montana are more and more hunters. 30 years ago we would get a mid week day off work and not see another hunter all day. Now you go hunting mid week and there are hunters everywhere. I think that 30 years ago people might hunt a few days, now they hunt for weeks and weeks, so while the total number of hunters might not have increased much, the number out on any given day certainly has.

I know exactly what you mean. It is the same down here. I grew up hunting pretty much the same pieces of public land that I hunt now. It sure seems that there are many more people on this ground than 10 or 15 years ago. Yet when you look at the number of licences sold here it is on a pretty steady decline.

I think here that there are just more hunters on public due the total loss of open land since they changed the laws on trespassing and posting land, hunting clubs leasing everything in sight and driving the price to lease hunting ground sky high, and the cost to buy all but the most marginal land skyrocketing.

The biggest difference I see is turkey season. I have seen a steady increase in the number of turkey hunters since I was a kid. I can remember as a youngster that we pretty much had the public ground to ourselves. There were just a few other turkey hunters around. Fast forward to today, where there is someone trying to call in gobblers with a crow call or owl hoot at 10 AM everywhere you look on the weekends and are still thick during the week.

 

[Mallardsx2]

I foresee tags getting harder and harder to draw and the price skyrocketing.

I cant foresee what the game agencies plan to do about the game populations but I hope they are doing something to protect the resource for thousands of years into the future. Personally I wouldnt mind paying 2X the license cosst if the agencies could gobble up more ground for people to hunt on. I like hunting public land, always have and I hope other people have lots fo it to hunt well into the future.