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Nemont

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June 27, 2004



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Back Country Horsemen help other outdoorsmen
Associated Press

KALISPELL - With a project planned nearly every week of the summer, the Back Country Horsemen prove their contention that they are a service organization - not a riding club.

Rather than focus on getting together for trail rides or leisurely ambles through the woods, the organization's members prefer to put themselves and their animals to work for the better good of fellow backcountry users.

"We always thought that we were a service club," said Ken Ausk, one of group's founders.


The group volunteers its time, manpower and equine labor to the U.S. Forest Service and other agencies each summer for many projects ranging from packing in supplies for wilderness crews to building bridges.

"Wilderness trails is pretty low on the government's priority list, so they don't get funded properly," member Greg Schatz said.

The reward for the more than 1,000 hours of volunteer time is not only the improved trails, but the gratitude from other backcountry users. Member Marie Johns said hikers have told her how much they appreciate having trails free of fallen trees. And being outdoors working with their horses is a reward in itself for most of the horsemen, members said.

When the group isn't on the trail, its members are teaching one another and the community how to observe the "leave no trace" conservation philosophy and how to use horses in backcountry areas such as the Bob Marshall Wilderness.

Teaching conservation has long been a goal of the club, Ausk said.

"As far as going easy on the land, we've been teaching that since Day 1," he said.

Ausk and co-founders Roland Cheek, Lloyd Fagerland, Dennis Swift and Dulane Fulton formed the organization with the purpose of performing service projects and teaching people how to tread "light on the land" when using horses in the wilderness.

Technological improvements in outdoor gear have made teaching light-on-the-land philosophies easier throughout the years, club members said. Lighter gear has made it easier for people to travel into the backcountry without hefting as much equipment as was necessary in the past.

The decreased weight means wilderness horsemen can get by with fewer horses. The old standard used to be that two pack horses were needed for each individual. But that ratio has flip-flopped and one horse to every two people is the standard now, Greg Schatz said.

But not everyone knows how to efficiently pack a horse, so the club frequently hosts demonstrations on the topic. That knowledge comes in handy when the group is packing in cumbersome, heavy materials such as gravel and timber needed to build backcountry projects. Ausk recalls one bridge that required the horsemento take in 12 tons of material.

Not all of the groups' events center on work, though, secretary Keni Hopkins said.

The club has get-togethers and potlucks throughout the year, although the season for service projects is May through August. Membership fees go toward the newsletters that members receive from local and national branches of the Back Country Horsemen.

The club started in the Flathead Valley and has since grown to include chapters in 15 other states with memberships totaling more than 10,000 people. Members, most of whom are about 55 but range in age from 12 to 85, need not own a horse to belong to the club. They just need to believe in the group's conservation and service philosophies.

In keeping with their conservation concerns, the club has an issue committee that keeps up on land management and other topics that affect horse use in the backcountry. That committee informs the appropriate bodies, such as the Forest Service, of its opinion.

Whether they're making suggestions on issues, volunteering on wilderness projects or educating each other and the community, Ausk said the current club members carry on the ideals of the founders.

"I think we're still on the same focus as we when we started, that is horse use in the backcountry," he said.
 
Good overall view of them. They do a lot of work in the hills around here also. And some of them are even "Welfare Ranchers and Fat Assed ATV Riders" who from what I have read on here don't do nothing but destroy everything. ;)
 
I just certified a number of these fellows so they could use chain saws leagly on FS property. It was all donated time because I also see them as a viable entity and they do good for others....
They only need call again and I would do it all over...
 
Ever since one of those backcountry horseman told me to move my goats a little farther down the hill because they were hurting his horses eyes have I been able to get the gravel out of my gears. Hurt my feelings to say nothing of the goats. Later TK.
 
Originally posted by ELKCHSR:
I just certified a number of these fellows so they could use chain saws leagly on FS property. It was all donated time because I also see them as a viable entity and they do good for others....
They only need call again and I would do it all over...
I thought any shmoe with a chain saw and a firewood permit could opperate one on FS land?
 
No Bambistew, didn't you know the liberals have passed Saw Control laws, and now we all need licenses to carry saws.

"When Saws are outlawed, only Outlaws will have saws"....

Could you imagine being certified to run a saw???
"Let's see now.... Here is the kill switch.... Here is the fuel tank... Here is the little ropey thingy... Pull the thingy... Now squeeze the black thingy with your figer... Hear it make a vroom vroom sound..."
 
I know that you can play all you want with a saw if your after fire wood and have the right permits and stay with in the confines of the permit.
Donate some free time and they will want this certification.... I know Buzz knows this, just looking for another fight... ;)
Won't find it here....

I don't care, I just like to help people that are donating their "Free time and effort" to help make things easier for others.
I do know that some people even have problems with this, because they want the FS/State "Wilderness" lands all to themselves and no one should be makeing things easier for any one else...
 
Come on now EG, you're too intelligent to make fun of a real safety issue, and especially to poke fun at someone who volunteers their time. Apparently you have not seen the consequences of accidents in using a chain saw. For more than just slicing through firewood, training is needed and the Forest Service does take a serious approach of enlightenment.

Note the following:

The Willamette National Forest & Siuslaw National Forest (USDA Forest Service), is sponsoring 3 "Saw Classes" in the upcoming months:

Lowell............Feb 28th (Saturday)
Sweet Home..Mar 27th (Saturday)
Sisters...........April 24th (Saturday)

All classes start at 9:00 A.M. at the Ranger Stations and go until we are done.

They are meant for the annual required certification/recertification requirement for sawing in the National Forest. They are designed for people who already have experience running, either or both, chain saws & cross cut saws. You are welcome to attend and watch if you have limited or no experience with the saws (if there is room in the class). but you may not be certified if the instructors professional opinion you are not ready for certification. There is both a written & field test.

Remember to wear long sleeve shirt, leather boots. Bring gloves, hearing protection, hard hat & chaps if you have them. Bring your own saw...saws, and your lunch.
 
"Come on now EG, you're too intelligent to make fun of a real safety issue, and especially to poke fun at someone who volunteers their time. Apparently you have not seen the consequences of accidents in using a chain saw. For more than just slicing through firewood, training is needed and the Forest Service does take a serious approach of enlightenment."


Whitedeer,I'll bet it was just a case of little sawdust in someone's eye and they overlooked that bit of information .
 
Elkcheese,

All you need to do is just state the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

The general public does not need a license, a class, or any other certification to run a chainsaw on NF lands.

If you work for the FS, yeah, you do.

Dont spread bad information.
 
I think that is what I said, you guy's again are making huge mountains out of small hills....

I think I stated some thing to the effect, with out putting every nuance and detail into it...
I do know what I have been told, unless they just want the qualification, why is it that the FS is requiring any one doing free work on FS property to have this? I really don't know.
gunner, enlighten us on my back cuts, bring up the pics and show every one where they are wrong, you love to make every thing but what you and a couple others do look such....
Matter of fact, I will show the pics right now, well any you have seen, and show me how smart you really are...



Tree_Topping.sized.jpg


Well that last back cut looks pretty flat

How about this one...

Dropping_Tree.jpg


HHmmmmm.....Again, looks pretty good if you actually know what your looking at...Plus if you just happen to notice the little details of the stumps in the back ground.... They look just like they are supposed to also....

Lets try this one....


Danger_Tree.jpg


I looked close, and it is also cut just as they should, unless you can enlighten us with your stunning brilliance on what I have done wrong with any of them, well except to post on this board at all... ;) :D
 
Buzz.....Read the following carefully. Back Country Horsemen of America is a service group and when they do trail clearing as volunteers, in order to do it legally as Elkchaser stated, they must be certified in chain saw use:

U.S. FOREST SERVICE CHAINSAW RULES AND REGULATIONS
WHAT GOOD ARE THEY AND WHY DO WE HAVE THEM?
4/3/98

Volunteers and agency staff who perform trail maintenance using chain saws will comply with all applicable laws, regulations, and agency policies. These laws, regulations, and policies are contained in a myriad of separate documents, such as the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) labor safety regulations in Title 29 of the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), the Forest Service Manual and Manual Supplements, and the Forest Service Health and Safety Code Handbook. There is no concise and complete compilation of these laws, regulations and agency policies pertaining to chain saw certification and use.

Below are some of the known requirements related to personal protective equipment (PPE), training, monitoring and other policies. This list is not intended to be used as a primary reference for ascertaining the applicable laws and regulations, but as a starting point in the search for such information. Instructors and trainees using this guide are strongly encouraged to research the source documents referenced below and other appropriate guiding publications for additional and more precise information.

Remember, the reason for these rules is to keep you safe!

All trail workers must wear hardhats, eye protection, and gloves regardless of duties. The following are rules specific to operating a chainsaw:


Personal Protective Equipment
Foot protection such as heavy duty logging boots, water proof, water repellant, with ankle support and non-skid soles, made of a cut resistant material such as ballistic nylon are required.
Boots will have 8"- 10" high leather tops.
Chaps or pants shall overlap top of boots by 2".
Chaps or pants shall be agency approved (4 layers of Kevlar - FS)
Eye and face protection are required. Face shields or screens may be used. Wrap-around safety glasses are recommended.
Hardhats meeting ANSI requirements are required Personal Productive Equipment.
Gloves which provide adequate protection from cuts, puncture wounds and lacerations shall be included as Personal Protective Equipment.
Hearing protection shall be included as part of Personal Protective Equipment.
A first-aid kit shall be located at (carried to) each work site.
Chainsaws must be equipped with a chain brake.

Training
Chain Saw Operator Certification includes 4-8 hours classroom and 16 hours practical (including on-the-job training); training shall be a minimum of 16 hours. A recertification/refresher class is needed every 4 years (FS Region 8)
Current First Aid and CPR certification is required. First Aid certification lasts 3 years, CPR lasts 1 year. Someone in your work group must be certified.
Communications and Monitoring
Forest Service units in Region 8 request being notified in advance regarding date and location of chain saw use in order to perform occasional field reviews of chainsaw operators. (FS Region 8)

Other Policies
Sawyers must not work alone.
Maximum diameter of trees that may be cut by volunteers is 8 inches.
A swamper or assistant to a sawyer working within 50' of a sawyer must wear hearing protection (in addition to standard PPE of hardhats, goggles & gloves)
Other trail workers must stay 2 tree lengths away from a sawyer when felling a tree.


All of the above information is provided to you to help you understand the rules and regulations the U.S. Forest Service must follow. We do not mean to overburden you with meaningless regulations. We want you to continue to help maintain trails and have a good time, but we also want you to be safe.

The U.S. Forest Service stands ready to assist volunteers with training, safety equipment, and tools if it is at all possible. We rely heavily on volunteers to maintain our trails and want that partnership to continue and grow.
 
unless it is this you are refering to.... ;)
If you punch up on the properties, you will notice this one has stump in the name...
Also if you haven't noticed. I would suppose you haven't because you wouldn't have come up with some thing quite so uninformed on what is actually going on...
Look at all the previous cuts, the face is what they call a conventional face cut...There you go, you even got to learn some thing new... Imagine that... ;)
Here is the second point, the cut here in these pics of this one tree is called a humbolt. If you were as informed on every thing as you perport, you would have done a little home work and found that I don't teach this cut, and I don't practice it much. I can, but don't, it's not even to bad of a face cut, but I don't see any thing wrong with the back cut in of itself. But you must see some thing I don't but you will find on fires, which you seem to know a lot about, that you find these kinds of things all the time....


Fire_stump_2.jpg


Fire_stump_3.jpg


Fire_stump_1.jpg

I would be very interested to know how you would be able to judge any of my sawing.
I would also put this in ending, comments like yours is the same I run into all the time "Just run the saw, it don't take any brains". Buzz may agree with you just to stay on your side, but I hear this type of funnies all the time... Well until I put a saw in their hands and have them show me how it is actually done... LMAO!!! :D
 
Whitedeer,

Read the first post Elkcheese put up, it isnt clear.

The reason for the training is that technically the USFS is responsible for volunteers while they are working.

However, unless you are working in an official capacity under a FS agreement (like volunteers) you are not required to do any type of training to run a saw on NF lands anywhere in the United States.

End of discussion.
 
Thanks a lot Whitedeer...

The info is greatly appreciated, here in region 1 the rules are little different, but that is pretty much the meat of it...
The rules here require 2 1/2 tree leangths, boots must be leather, no steel toes and vibrum souls.
The differences are really very minor. :D
 
Buzz......Can you spell "Crawdad", "Crayfish", "Weasel" ???

Elkchaser's response (referenced above) was clear and concise to everyone with either any shred of common sense.

Get off your personal vendetta and contribute.
 
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