Fixing social security

[Derek44]

Lets just put the libs in charge - covid will go on forever.

Baffling how some people get off on thinking the other side of the aisle is greedy - yet flippantly feel entitled to other peoples money and possessions.

Happy easter!

So your lib/con argument is that the right will eradicate a virus? Why didn’t they do it when they had the chance then? And how is that going to fix SS?

And the second assumption in your well thought out response is just silly. I suppose some may feel that way but from what I’ve read, no one in this discussion has those sentiments.

 

[brymoore]

Lets just put the libs in charge - covid will go on forever.

Baffling how some people get off on thinking the other side of the aisle is greedy - yet flippantly feel entitled to other peoples money and possessions.

Happy easter!

…and this is why nothing gets done.

I haven’t seen much of a solution from either side except to play party politics.

Neither side wants to make the hard decisions.

 

[MTGomer]

Owners could take the funds from PPP as dividends and have no government recourse, once they jumped threw the hoops to get repayment waived.

Remember when politicians on both sides made it out like the one or two congressmen that opposed printing billions to pump into PPP were horrible anti American scum? That was neat.

 

[Nick87]

Remember when politicians on both sides made it out like the one or two congressmen that opposed printing billions to pump into PPP were horrible anti American scum? That was neat.

Yup and that damage is permanent.

 

[MTGomer]

PPP: my family’s neighbor

Clinton business owner admits COVID-19 relief loan fraud

www.justice.gov

 

[Nick87]

PPP: my family’s neighbor

Clinton business owner admits COVID-19 relief loan fraud

www.justice.gov

The billions number didn't really hit home until I started researching local businesses that I'm familiar with (mostly excavating companies). Miilion here, 2 million there and that's just one small tri-county area in one field. The amount of money that was pumped is mind boggling. Too bad some of the businesses that were forced to shut down didn't even get a penny in a lot of cases. They sure hit a home run on that.

 

[BuzzH]

…and this is why nothing gets done.

I haven’t seen much of a solution from either side except to play party politics.

Neither side wants to make the hard decisions.

Staying focused is also why nothing gets done as well. Dragging COVID into a discussion, that @MtEngineer did, is counterproductive.

Also the same thing Congress does.

I don't think the decisions to shore up SS are that hard, the politicians just want us to believe they are.

Remove the income cap, problem solved.

After that, start working on pensions and 401's that benefit everyone, including low wage earners.

 

[Forkyfinder]

Staying focused is also why nothing gets done as well. Dragging COVID into a discussion, that @MtEngineer did, is counterproductive.

Also the same thing Congress does.

I don't think the decisions to shore up SS are that hard, the politicians just want us to believe they are.

Remove the income cap, problem solved.

After that, start working on pensions and 401's that benefit everyone, including low wage earners.

So remove the cap - and keep max ss benefits where they are?

Interesting. Read a book on economics and come back less ignorant.

 

[BuzzH]

So remove the cap - and keep max ss benefits where they are?

Interesting. Read a book on economics and come back less ignorant.

That's what's going to happen so brace yourself.

Bury your head in the sand and pretend all you want it won't.

 

[Forkyfinder]

So your lib/con argument is that the right will eradicate a virus? Why didn’t they do it when they had the chance then? And how is that going to fix SS?

And the second assumption in your well thought out response is just silly. I suppose some may feel that way but from what I’ve read, no one in this discussion has those sentiments.

No.

My point is that all of the economic hardship (namely inflation) has been a product of covid spending. And not much else.

 

[406dn]

Any thread lasting 25 pages, will have several tangents.

Regarding the covid tangent. With hindsight, most can agree that the PPP included money that was stolen, wasted and also benefited many people. Any time there is significant money involved, the grifters and crooks are drawn to it a like a moth to a flame. It will always be so.

What can't ever know, is how would it have turned out if Uncle Sam stayed out of the response to covid. We did not live that scenario, so any judgement is entirely conjecture. That frees up people to just run wild with their opinion.

I've tried to cut slack in every direction concerning covid. We were flying blind, at first. It has affected every person on the planet, in some way. We all have our own covid chapter in our lives.

The median wealth of households aged 65-74 is $409.9k. That means they have their home paid off and maybe ~$100k in other assets. Half of families have less than this. I think we could agree, that would not allow people to stop working, without SS.

Pensions have disappeared largely from private employers. There is much to like from a company's point of view to going to a defined contribution plan. Their cost is known, limited, and voluntary on their part. Another vulnerable part of private employer pensions is that the company may well go bankrupt before their pension obligations are fulfilled. That is a large reason Uncle Sam oversees private pensions, since they have built a backstop for when a company fails to meet its pension obligation.

Way back at the beginning, I said that in the coming years, we will realize that 401k and IRA plans will prove to come up quite short in funding retirements for most Americans. Many things have changed since I began working. One thing a company pension did is put golden handcuffs on employees. It does not take long to realize that if you stick to the job, there is something big for you at the finish line.

Now, with so few companies offering a defined benefit pension, employees are much more inclined to job hop. One result of this is interrupted savings toward retirement. I do think in 30 years, give or take, there are going to be millions of Americans, old, unable to work, and financially strapped. I hope I'm wrong.

Happy Easter once again

 

[Nick87]

What can't ever know, is how would it have turned out if Uncle Sam stayed out of the response to covid. We did not live that scenario, so any judgement is entirely conjecture. That frees up people to just run wild with their opinion.

While it totally opinion I think we may have been better off in the long run. Just my gut feeling. They'd of been better off not mandating any shutdowns while they were at it. Again also my opinion.

 

[Alpine01]

Remove the income cap, problem solved.

Do you remove the benefits cap then as well? If not, then now it is just another highly progressive income tax so do away with SS all-together and give everyone a defined benefit package (i.e., Govt pension). Layer another huge future financial burden on the younger working class. It's why millennials and early GenZ'ers already hate boomers and GenX'ers as they are the one's that will have to foot the bill in the near term. But hey - you get yours right?

After that, start working on pensions and 401's that benefit everyone, including low wage earners.

So you want the Govt to force private industry to provide pensions? As others have noted, 401K don't always help low wage earners so that doesn't solve the problem. Sounds like you just want to socialize/governmentalize private industry. Not a scenario I would ever like to see. I prefer far less government than more.

 

[BuzzH]

You're not wrong. What some of the hard cores that have commented on this thread don't realize, a large part of the working class flat assed don't make enough to contribute to a 401 or IRA.

Many work for employers that don't offer a 401.

I'm not concerned about myself, SS is fishing/hunting money for me.

What I find reprehensible is the callousness expressed by some on this thread toward the working class that will be relying heavily on SS to be able to retire.

It's ridiculous and sad.

 

[Alpine01]

Any thread lasting 25 pages, will have several tangents.

Regarding the covid tangent. With hindsight, most can agree that the PPP included money that was stolen, wasted and also benefited many people. Any time there is significant money involved, the grifters and crooks are drawn to it a like a moth to a flame. It will always be so.

What can't ever know, is how would it have turned out if Uncle Sam stayed out of the response to covid. We did not live that scenario, so any judgement is entirely conjecture. That frees up people to just run wild with their opinion.

I've tried to cut slack in every direction concerning covid. We were flying blind, at first. It has affected every person on the planet, in some way. We all have our own covid chapter in our lives.

The median wealth of households aged 65-74 is $409.9k. That means they have their home paid off and maybe ~$100k in other assets. Half of families have less than this. I think we could agree, that would not allow people to stop working, without SS.

Pensions have disappeared largely from private employers. There is much to like from a company's point of view to going to a defined contribution plan. Their cost is known, limited, and voluntary on their part. Another vulnerable part of private employer pensions is that the company may well go bankrupt before their pension obligations are fulfilled. That is a large reason Uncle Sam oversees private pensions, since they have built a backstop for when a company fails to meet its pension obligation.

Way back at the beginning, I said that in the coming years, we will realize that 401k and IRA plans will prove to come up quite short in funding retirements for most Americans. Many things have changed since I began working. One thing a company pension did is put golden handcuffs on employees. It does not take long to realize that if you stick to the job, there is something big for you at the finish line.

Now, with so few companies offering a defined benefit pension, employees are much more inclined to job hop. One result of this is interrupted savings toward retirement. I do think in 30 years, give or take, there are going to be millions of Americans, old, unable to work, and financially strapped. I hope I'm wrong.

Happy Easter once again

I think you have summed it up quite well. Thank you. Although I don't think the current trend of job-hopping is tied to whether or not a company offers a defined benefits pension. More about short-termed gains than long-term planning, at least in my observations of the 300+ engineers that I oversee. I advise all of them to take advantage of every matching dollar the company offers so they don't end up financially strapped in 30 years. But, their choices and their consequences.

 

[BuzzH]

Do you remove the benefits cap then as well? If not, then now it is just another highly progressive income tax so do away with SS all-together and give everyone a defined benefit package (i.e., Govt pension). Layer another huge future financial burden on the younger working class. It's why millennials and early GenZ'ers already hate boomers and GenX'ers as they are the one's that will have to foot the bill in the near term. But hey - you get yours right?

So you want the Govt to force private industry to provide pensions? As others have noted, 401K don't always help low wage earners so that doesn't solve the problem. Sounds like you just want to socialize/governmentalize private industry. Not a scenario I would ever like to see. I prefer far less government than more.

Nope keep the cap on benefits. Why would anyone making over $168,000 bitch about continuing to pay toward SS?

If you're going to slash SS, you gdamn right business's should be forced to provide a pension or very lucrative 401.

Required employer funded 401's (none of this matching chit) and pensions would most certainly help low wage earners.

BTW, you and the government are going to pay for the old one way or another. We aren't going to allow a bunch of blue hairs to be tossed out in the streets in their "golden" years. Doesn't matter if it's due to their piss poor planning or not.

 

[Alpine01]

You're not wrong. What some of the hard cores that have commented on this thread don't realize, a large part of the working class flat assed don't make enough to contribute to a 401 or IRA.

Many work for employers that don't offer a 401.

I'm not concerned about myself, SS is fishing/hunting money for me.

What I find reprehensible is the callousness expressed by some on this thread toward the working class that will be relying heavily on SS to be able to retire.

It's ridiculous and sad.

I can appreciate your perspective and in some cases, you are spot on. But, everyone makes choices in their lives that dictate where they will be later in life. I believe people should also take full responsibility for those choices and the consequences that come from it. Too many want to live in the present and then expect others to pay for their life in the future. I don't see that as callousness. I see that as accepting responsibility for your own life and well-being.

 

[cgasner1]

Nope keep the cap on benefits. Why would anyone making over $168,000 bitch about continuing to pay toward SS?

If you're going to slash SS, you gdamn right business's should be forced to provide a pension or very lucrative 401.

Required employer funded 401's (none of this matching chit) and pensions would most certainly help low wage earners.

BTW, you and the government are going to pay for the old one way or another. We aren't going to allow a bunch of blue hairs to be tossed out in the streets in their "golden" years. Doesn't matter if it's due to their piss poor planning or not.

Problem with making an employer fund a 401k for someone is they have no control over it. I’d be willing to bet you the type of person that needs a fully funded employer 401k still won’t have a pot to piss in when they get old. Those people will take money out of it non stop for boats and trips and whatever else.

 

[BuzzH]

I can appreciate your perspective and in some cases, you are spot on. But, everyone makes choices in their lives that dictate where they will be later in life. I believe people should also take full responsibility for those choices and the consequences that come from it. Too many want to live in the present and then expect others to pay for their life in the future. I don't see that as callousness. I see that as accepting responsibility for your own life and well-being.

Easy for you to say, walk a mile in someone else's shoes, report back.

Not everyone in the US have the same circumstances, abilities, etc as you do. Choices are pretty limited for a lot of people for a lot of valid reasons. You must live in a pretty special place to not know hard working people struggling. Surely they are not making bad decisions and living the high life. I know some of those people, friends of mine even.

I guess too f'ing bad for them, let's take their SS, let them work until they die, and call it a day.

Like I said the callousness is what I find most offensive, and it's always from those that should know better.

 

[Alpine01]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

Required employer funded 401's (none of this matching chit) and pensions would most certainly help low wage earners.

I.e., make someone else responsible for your retirement - individual contributes nothing; it's someone's else responsibility to take care of you.

BTW, you and the government are going to pay for the old one way or another. We aren't going to allow a bunch of blue hairs to be tossed out in the streets in their "golden" years. Doesn't matter if it's due to their piss poor planning or not.

I.e., make someone else responsible for your retirement - individual contributes nothing; it's someone's else responsibility to take care of you.

If I had that mindset, there is no reason to work at all. Go do what I want to do for the next 30 years and then sit back and let someone else take care of me. Live off of someone else's labor. Great, sign me up. I'll start with you. I fully expect you to send me $10K per month so that I can live comfortably when I retire next month. PM me your bank account numbers. As you keep saying, you're sitting comfortable at the moment.