Evaluate the ROI on Education

[TOGIE]

The guys i know that went out on their own don't see their kids much - they're gaining weight, they've gone to the doctor for ulcers, their wives are noble and gritty but drowning at home. They do make a lot of money. One of them is in the half way through stages of contracts and negotiations with an investment bank to sell his company for more than I bet many on here could guess. He's my age, early 30's. He'll be able to retire 50 times over here when this gets finalized. Knowing him, he'll just be on to the next instead. That's his brain and there's nothing wrong with that.

For me, the hum drum of working for someone sucks on many levels. Some people are wired for the above, many aren't. But I do like my boring stability and ample time off.

The little things like getting home at the same time everyday and taking the dog for a walk while my 2.5 year old rides his little stryder bike around the neighborhood are priceless. I don't see the business owner types i know doing stuff like that, maybe on the weekends, sometimes.

That's one thing a college degree helps ensure: stability and a life. But some people want more and different and that's truly not a bad thing.

 

[buckbull]

I'm seeing college prices being quoted that I wish I was paying. My sons freshman year at the university of illinois in state tuition, dorm and meal plan was around $52,000. My daughter's in state, dorm, and meal plan at illinois state was $42,000 her freshman year. They both had scholarships, grants, etc so that isn't the true out of pocket costs but still a significant cost.

 

[rjthehunter]

Think you are living in the past. Wages have gone up, you can make around 40K flipping burgers and other menial jobs these days.

I think quite a few of our very wealthy citizens would have a bone to pick with Howard too. Education doesn't pay off immediately in many jobs but pay off over time it sure does.

Not at all uncommon to see wage growth zoom up fast these days--even in the same job. Many places have a probationary/interim wage that increases automatically if the employee doesn't screw up.

Average teacher salary in Minnesota: Here's how much educators are paid

As schools across the country struggle to find teachers to hire, more governors are pushing for pay increases, bonuses and other perks for the beleaguered profession.

www.fox9.com

Wages grow fast in a lot of industries. Pick one that starts higher and it'll top out higher as well.

 

[Bonasababy]

I'm seeing college prices being quoted that I wish I was paying. My sons freshman year at the university of illinois in state tuition, dorm and meal plan was around $52,000. My daughter's in state, dorm, and meal plan at illinois state was $42,000 her freshman year. They both had scholarships, grants, etc so that isn't the true out of pocket costs but still a significant cost.

I thought MN was bad!

It really pays to look at outstate schools--or even Canada--where kids can often go much more cheaply than they can in these home states that charge way too much to attend. State schools again rarely offer much in financial aid--private schools are thought of as more expensive but don't discount them without checking as their aid can be a lot higher and more than make up the difference in some cases.

 

[Bonasababy]

Average teacher salary in Minnesota: Here's how much educators are paid

As schools across the country struggle to find teachers to hire, more governors are pushing for pay increases, bonuses and other perks for the beleaguered profession.

www.fox9.com

Wages grow fast in a lot of industries. Pick one that starts higher and it'll top out higher as well.

Some of the better off people I know are teachers. They don't work summers you know--teaching that is. They often work something else that can be lucrative in the summers. I've seen everything from landscaping to painting to insurance adjusting to a construction crew/remodling/home building. But yea going to school at a MN state school to be a teacher is questionable given the high cost of state schools in MN. Unless your parents or single parent doesn't make much and they qualify for free tuition. Room and board still aint cheap.

I don't know of many teachers who aren't double income families either. It's a good gig in that situation for the right person. Most of the teachers families I know growing up did well enough to have a 2nd lake place somewhere, or retired to one.

 

[MNElkNut]

NDSU as a MN resident (reciprocity) $19K Tuition, Room and Board.

I only saw this mentioned once, but kids should have jobs and should be able to get some semblance of a scholarship if they work hard. Nobody should be borrowing the full price of tuition, room, and board.

 

[JAG]

The guys i know that went out on their own don't see their kids much - they're gaining weight, they've gone to the doctor for ulcers, their wives are noble and gritty but drowning at home. They do make a lot of money. One of them is in the half way through stages of contracts and negotiations with an investment bank to sell his company for more than I bet many on here could guess. He's my age, early 30's. He'll be able to retire 50 times over here when this gets finalized. Knowing him, he'll just be on to the next instead. That's his brain and there's nothing wrong with that.

For me, the hum drum of working for someone sucks on many levels. Some people are wired for the above, many aren't. But I do like my boring stability and ample time off.

The little things like getting home at the same time everyday and taking the dog for a walk while my 2.5 year old rides his little stryder bike around the neighborhood are priceless. I don't see the business owner types i know doing stuff like that, maybe on the weekends, sometimes.

That's one thing a college degree helps ensure: stability and a life. But some people want more and different and that's truly not a bad thing.

For the guys you know, can you identify their passion(s) and reconcile whether they were chasing the money vs. something else? How do you reflect on that?

When I discuss with some high school or college students and ask about their college choice/options, Major, and anything else on their mind, they often reveal that the core of their aims is intrinsically tied to the money they hope to make.

 

[JAG]

Rich Dad, Poor Dad is a good read.
Years ago, when I had very little to get by on, I noticed that real money was in real estate, and owning business. This was before internet. I self educated in these subjects. Read books. Applied what I learned. Life is full of pain and suffering. It's Part of education. IMO charge ahead toward what excites you the most, what do you want?, what is exciting? Take action towards what you really want. Life becomes exciting!

This is a great book with lots of great points on demonstrating how to get rich without depending on an expensive degree to earn big bucks. By the time I got it, I had already developed most of my time and capital towards mutual funds and stocks.

As such, I was doing well enough to continue my development as a DIY investor and didn't want to spend too much of my time figuring out a new way to invest.

Another book that reveals an alternate perspective from societal norms in the realm of finance is "The Millionaire Next Door". The emphasis is on how to value your money and manage it instead of being its slave. The key example I remember was the authors' who had access to specific details of two doctors and revealed their lifestyles while keeping their names concealed. The comparison/contrast of their lifestyles between the two (2) doctors with the same income, but stark differences in spending habits was both revealing and informative.

The book is so good that I offer to pay my kids $100 to read it and choose either to
1) Discuss each chapter with me or complete
2) the study guide I wrote up.

 

[Pucky Freak]

It is that simple. Look at how many people are grossly in debt due to their choice of college degrees. There is plenty of people who are completely upside down after getting a 4 year teaching degree at a private school. If a teaching degree costs you $30k a year at a private school, you come out with $120k in debt. Your starting salary is roughly $40k. That's a terrible ROI.

Change that scenario to a public college, where tuition would run about $10k a year, you're coming out with $40k in debt, still a lot for starting at $40k a year. But that is deemed the highest debt you should incur based on the expected salary.
This is an OK ROI.

Go to school for something that pays well like Construction management, or IT Security, then you come out of school making $60k and only $40k in debt (Even less if you'd work and cash flow half of your college).
That is a great ROI.

It doesn't matter what you're going to make in 15 years if your debt interest starts accruing at year 1. The longer you hold a debt, the more it costs you. It's a numbers game, not a mind game.

Clark Howard financial rule of "Never borrow more for a four-year degree than the entry-level salary you expect to earn your first year after receiving that degree."

Does not sound terrible until you factor in interest. Average interest is 6.87% and avg. time to repay is 20 years. So your 100k student loan costs $184k.

 

[rjthehunter]

Does not sound terrible until you factor in interest. Average interest is 6.87% and avg. time to repay is 20 years. So your 100k student loan costs $184k.

Agreed. If you're sitting on these loans waiting for better pay in the future, you're losing money. The sooner you pay them off, the better. Like I said, it's a numbers game!

 

[TOGIE]

For the guys you know, can you identify their passion(s) and reconcile whether they were chasing the money vs. something else? How do you reflect on that?

When I discuss with some high school or college students and ask about their college choice/options, Major, and anything else on their mind, they often reveal that the core of their aims is intrinsically tied to the money they hope to make.

I think on some levels it would be hard and unfair for me to totally say. I do think it would still be, at the same time, fairly accurate for me to assess that it is about the money. At least in these several specific cases.

I don't think it's fair to say that everyone is doing things like going in business for themselves just for the money. It's often the passion of getting to do what you want to do and getting to apply your unique skillset while channeling that passion towards something you genuinely enjoy. I mean, it is truly one of the secret sauces to some satisfaction and happiness in life - to feel worthy and capable and to do good work that you excel at. Does seem that it inevitably becomes about the money one way or another, which isn't entirely bad. But it's a hollow life if you're not careful. In my worldview money and sex will always remain as the top 2 things that lead to the downfall of many men.

The thing I know for sure is that in general I don't really resonate with these people. I don't relate to people that are consumed in their work. People without hobbies are a different breed to me and I don't mix all that well with them. They find what brings them fulfillment and i'm fine with that but it's not my cup of tea.

The sell your company and retire young thing isn't something i'd snub my nose at, let's be clear. But the idea of "some day i'll have all the time to really figure out this elk hunting thing" and "once we finalize this sale I'll have all the time to finally get my kids out fishing" is a non starter. I'm never gonna roll the dice on "there will be time later" as much as i can help it.

 

[JAG]

NDSU as a MN resident (reciprocity) $19K Tuition, Room and Board.

I only saw this mentioned once, but kids should have jobs and should be able to get some semblance of a scholarship if they work hard. Nobody should be borrowing the full price of tuition, room, and board.

I agree, but the majority of American college students pay full price plus interest.

I'm willing to bet that the majority of people and their children on HuntTalk fit into your category (not borrowing at full price) because they have an excellent combination of purposeful intellect and hard work ethic.

 

[Bonasababy]

NDSU as a MN resident (reciprocity) $19K Tuition, Room and Board.

I only saw this mentioned once, but kids should have jobs and should be able to get some semblance of a scholarship if they work hard. Nobody should be borrowing the full price of tuition, room, and board.

NDSU and UND have long been cheaper options but because of the law change for lower income families they were supposed to offer even cheaper deals than what you list here as well. Kind of nice for kids--a race to compete on lower costs.

Only for lower income families though.

In my day we could move away from home for a number of months and claim independence and be eligible for grants. Not any more even things that are nowhere liquid are claimed as something a family can sell or use to fund their kids education, reducing their aid.
And--you might want to check out the big regional papers article on how kids who work too much and go to college are faring poorly even failing. Suggestion based on data is that 10-15 hours a week if the job is on campus is about as much as you want to work.

 

[Bonasababy]

Does not sound terrible until you factor in interest. Average interest is 6.87% and avg. time to repay is 20 years. So your 100k student loan costs $184k.

Whole nother discussion. There;s loan forgiveness for many public service jobs--oh wait, Trump wants to take all that away.

Federal college loan interest is obscene giving the return such loans provide to the economy they should be a lot cheaper. Of course the previous administration took steps to help that the current one flipped to hurt right away. The department of education he wants to abolish? They are THE agency in charge of student loans in the country.

Investing in education is an investment in the productivity and economy of your country.

Only in the US do we not recognize that.

 

[SAJ-99]

I agree, but the majority of American college students pay full price plus interest.

Please recheck your source.

 

[BuzzH]

There are jobs out there where a person has no choice but to go to college, mine was one of those.

In fairness, when I went to College I paid out of pocket for the whole thing, and could do it pretty easily working 5-6 month seasons in the field I wanted to pursue and with the agency I wanted to work for. Gaining the experience was equally as important as the degree.

I knew what I wanted, I wanted time off, I wanted to work in the woods, and make enough to be comfortable, in particular on the back end (retirement, etc.). I also knew I didn't want to "wait to retire" before doing the things I wanted to do. What's the point in working if you can't have some fun along with way? Glad I didn't "wait to retire" to kill 4 rams, or 89 elk, or a muskox, etc. etc. etc. etc. I'd be miserable if I couldn't hunt 50-60 days a year. I'd be miserable if I didn't make enough to fish AK every year with my friends. I'd be miserable if I couldn't afford to apply for any tags I want to.

I'll admit to being lucky that I had one good friend that gave me good advice to invest early and "pay yourself first" as well. Took my Dad's advice that having a DBP or pension was pretty important as well as health coverage into retirement.

With my work career coming to a close within 2-3 years, I must admit I made the best possible decisions I could have and I would probably do the same exact thing if I had it to do over again. I also got to hunt and fish all I wanted and then some and never had to put myself in debt to do any of it. The ONLY avenue I had to get there is a 4 year degree, period, end of statement.

Balance is what I believe it takes, not many savvy that. Further, the things that I value most is my time and the time I get to do the things that I enjoy most...working isn't even in the top 10.

 

[SAJ-99]

Does not sound terrible until you factor in interest. Average interest is 6.87% and avg. time to repay is 20 years. So your 100k student loan costs $184k.

The parents had 20 years to save for college. Could have slowly put away some cash for the kid and invested in to earn the 6.87% and make college a whole lot cheaper.

The reason the cost of college is so high is because the Federal government reduced/eliminated a lot of funding to universities starting in the 80's. The onus was then on the states. We can see how that genius idea worked out.

 

[Nick87]

Balance is what I believe it takes, not many savvy that.

I would agree wholeheartedly. However, trying to find that balance is probably the hardest part of finding the right career, at least in my experience.

 

[TheGrayRider]

I'm seeing college prices being quoted that I wish I was paying. My sons freshman year at the university of illinois in state tuition, dorm and meal plan was around $52,000. My daughter's in state, dorm, and meal plan at illinois state was $42,000 her freshman year. They both had scholarships, grants, etc so that isn't the true out of pocket costs but still a significant cost.

For comparison, my first semester at LSU in Fall 1986 cost $450 for full time tuition (13 credit hours), $100 for on-campus meal plan (15 meals/week), shared dorm room $350, & books around $100. No scholarships and total was around $1,000/semester.

I think my brother only paid $285/semester full-time tuition in 1984. Those were the days!

I don’t know how kids or parents can afford or justify these university prices today?? Good luck and happy hunting, TheGrayRider a/k/a Tom.

 

[JAG]

Please recheck your source.

I just did and I stand corrected; most people don't pay the sticker price.

It's still not cheap.