BuzzH
Well-known member
Florida says, hold my beer, we want to give youth all kinds of opportunities...
Evaluate the ROI on Education
- Thread starter JAG
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No point to make today?
I suggested an idea in my prior post and you pooh-pooh’d it, trying to steer the conversation toward (what I believe was) immigration and people protesting.
Not a direction I cared to take a debate with a stranger on a hunting forum.
Bambistew
Well-known member
@MTGomer hit it on the head. If you work for someone you are really never going to "make it."
I know lots of guys that own their own business, do well, but also work their asses off and when work has to be done it has to be done. They aren't dropping everything to take a vacation, unless they really aren't involved with the business.
I work for a company, but run my own show, chase my own jobs and do what I want. Don't want to go to work today, or next week, or take off a couple weeks? No problem, just plan it out, just like I'd have to do if I ran my own business. It's pretty crazy the autonomy I have. Basically run a business within a business. I've seriously considered going out on my own, but I'm not sure I'd make more money, and without a doubt I'd have to work harder. It's only going to get easier from here until I retire in another 8-10 years.
I'm not sure why people argue about school vs trades. Such a stupid thing to worry about. Get out there and get after it, doesn't matter what you do.
I know lots of guys that own their own business, do well, but also work their asses off and when work has to be done it has to be done. They aren't dropping everything to take a vacation, unless they really aren't involved with the business.
I work for a company, but run my own show, chase my own jobs and do what I want. Don't want to go to work today, or next week, or take off a couple weeks? No problem, just plan it out, just like I'd have to do if I ran my own business. It's pretty crazy the autonomy I have. Basically run a business within a business. I've seriously considered going out on my own, but I'm not sure I'd make more money, and without a doubt I'd have to work harder. It's only going to get easier from here until I retire in another 8-10 years.
I'm not sure why people argue about school vs trades. Such a stupid thing to worry about. Get out there and get after it, doesn't matter what you do.
rjthehunter
Well-known member
I'm sure there's a formula somewhere.
Just don't take out 120k for a job that makes 40k a year.
It's not as hard as most people make it sound. I wish economic classes were taught more in HS. I know more than a couple goons that took out 80k plus make 40k a year. That's a stretch in my book.
Just don't take out 120k for a job that makes 40k a year.
It's not as hard as most people make it sound. I wish economic classes were taught more in HS. I know more than a couple goons that took out 80k plus make 40k a year. That's a stretch in my book.
The studies vs The doing
"If there are trades making over $100k, it’s not many."
As a high school dropout and an employee, I was pumping 96k yearly, electrician non union. Late 90's, early 2,000's. 25 years ago! Then, I started a business, and investments, that have been expanding ever since. Education helps, and I've attended great business coaching seminars later in life, but nothing can beat a positive attitude and acting on what excites, it brings opportunity and rich reward.
Employees typically don't make millions.
Rich Dad, Poor Dad is a good read.
Years ago, when I had very little to get by on, I noticed that real money was in real estate, and owning business. This was before internet. I self educated in these subjects. Read books. Applied what I learned. Life is full of pain and suffering. It's Part of education. IMO charge ahead toward what excites you the most, what do you want?, what is exciting? Take action towards what you really want. Life becomes exciting!
Years ago, when I had very little to get by on, I noticed that real money was in real estate, and owning business. This was before internet. I self educated in these subjects. Read books. Applied what I learned. Life is full of pain and suffering. It's Part of education. IMO charge ahead toward what excites you the most, what do you want?, what is exciting? Take action towards what you really want. Life becomes exciting!
I can definitely agree with that last sentence. My general concern has more to do with the lack of effort. I'm awful at math, but that just meant I had to work a little harder.
Nick87
Well-known member
Certainly no lack of effort from the guys I was talking about at work. Some people (kids) I don't think will put forth the effort if they aren't excited about it. You offer those same kids $60 an hour and some of them care real quick. Not saying they shouldn't care about school, that's just the way it is though. I know I used to have straight A's on high honor roll through middle school and part of high school. Once I realized that I wasn't going to college I pretty much skated by passing. That's just my experience though.
Again, no disagreement on that. I am also generalizing, but there is a trend of apathy that I did not see 5-6 years ago. One of the biggest issues I'm seeing is students will pay attention juuust long enough to determine whether or not they need to continue paying attention. They will then ask questions or so something incorrectly, simply because they chose to stop listening. Again, a generalization, but a common trend we have discussed at lunch, staff meetings, etc. I would be curious if any other teachers/teacher spouses are noticing this.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Agree with those statements. Sadly, the concern about academic success nationally slipping is borne out by evaluation of performance to long established standards. IMO, it is critical to require and nurture students to meet standards in studies of math, English, and science, as well as introducing them to opportunities to learn about the trades.
As a student of math throughout high school and college studies, I recognize the relationship to being able to reason with logic. Fluency in understanding and expressing using the English language is not only critical here in this nation, but abroad as well. Scientific approach to many issues hand-in-hand with the logical analysis skills learned through math is missing in the conclusions, opinions, and beliefs expressed by much too large of our country's population.
IMO, tearing down institutions and proven academic methods is not the answer to improving the overall situation.
Nick87
Well-known member
Yah my step kid fits that bill I'd say lol. He's 16.
Nameless Range
Well-known member
It’s a real interesting thread. Particularly for me, as I try my best to inform/advise my children on decisions they need or will need to make regarding futures as they get older.
This thread is full of anecdote, but there’s hard data out there that makes a compelling case for college. I do wonder though, if that data, which seems entirely retrospective, will look different 10 years from now - be it AI, or just a changing job market.
Anecdotally, the most financially set friends I have did not go to college. A couple went to the oil fields during the Bakken Boom and started their own businesses. Another, who barely passed high school, now runs his own painting business and could retire before 45 if he chose. Again, there’s data that could really ferret this out, but so much of wealth accumulated over a lifetime seems to have a pretty high level of chance involved. Of course it’s chance combined with hard work, but you see some folks get involved at the ground level of something that takes off, and they take off with it. I think that’s cool.
The current public land divestiture discussions have had me thinking about the very real discrepancy between cost(quantitative) and worth(qualitative). For most analysis, ROI is chiefly quantitative. When looking through that lens for a human being’s career path, dollars spent on education juxtaposed against income over a lifetime may be a fine proxy for the former. Flexibility, joy, interest, a mission one believes in - perhaps better proxies for the latter. Both matter.
I admire those with the dream and resolve to have a vision of their careers in mind and execute that vision. I was an absolutely shit college student with little of those attributes, and it took me 150% longer than it should have, but I feel college paid off for me in terms of ROI in both cost and worth. That said, I also feel lucky and wonder how much of my own feelings and the feelings of anyone you ask about their lives could be cognitive dissonance, thusly making the worth valuation of ROI tough. That said, over the years I have increasingly soured on the debt one accumulates for college if one does not have that vision of their future in mind and the discipline to pursue it. Even then, that vision needs to make sense financially.
College is a far more serious decision than it once was, and conveying that to a teenager is something I am trying to do.
This thread is full of anecdote, but there’s hard data out there that makes a compelling case for college. I do wonder though, if that data, which seems entirely retrospective, will look different 10 years from now - be it AI, or just a changing job market.
Anecdotally, the most financially set friends I have did not go to college. A couple went to the oil fields during the Bakken Boom and started their own businesses. Another, who barely passed high school, now runs his own painting business and could retire before 45 if he chose. Again, there’s data that could really ferret this out, but so much of wealth accumulated over a lifetime seems to have a pretty high level of chance involved. Of course it’s chance combined with hard work, but you see some folks get involved at the ground level of something that takes off, and they take off with it. I think that’s cool.
The current public land divestiture discussions have had me thinking about the very real discrepancy between cost(quantitative) and worth(qualitative). For most analysis, ROI is chiefly quantitative. When looking through that lens for a human being’s career path, dollars spent on education juxtaposed against income over a lifetime may be a fine proxy for the former. Flexibility, joy, interest, a mission one believes in - perhaps better proxies for the latter. Both matter.
I admire those with the dream and resolve to have a vision of their careers in mind and execute that vision. I was an absolutely shit college student with little of those attributes, and it took me 150% longer than it should have, but I feel college paid off for me in terms of ROI in both cost and worth. That said, I also feel lucky and wonder how much of my own feelings and the feelings of anyone you ask about their lives could be cognitive dissonance, thusly making the worth valuation of ROI tough. That said, over the years I have increasingly soured on the debt one accumulates for college if one does not have that vision of their future in mind and the discipline to pursue it. Even then, that vision needs to make sense financially.
College is a far more serious decision than it once was, and conveying that to a teenager is something I am trying to do.
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SAJ-99
Well-known member
To the point of the OP, I would rather there be a HS graduation requirement that you have to pass the same test someone has to pass to become naturalized citizen than I would to teach them skills in the Culinary Arts. Kids are learning less in the K-12 education system these days. I have seen enough to know it is rarely the teachers' fault. Parenting is terrible.
My only add to the ROI is what is the value of relationships? College (or even trade school) is an opportunity to build both interpersonal skills and actual relationships that will help a career more than most of the classes. Kids these days are often failing at developing those interpersonal skills.
My only add to the ROI is what is the value of relationships? College (or even trade school) is an opportunity to build both interpersonal skills and actual relationships that will help a career more than most of the classes. Kids these days are often failing at developing those interpersonal skills.
Bonasababy
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Just not that simple. Many jobs start out making less--a lot less--than they will in a fairly short period of time.
The value of a dollar when I started working until today has increased around 2 3/4 times. My wages have increased by 4 1/4 times over that same period, actually more than that because I was just shy of full time when I started so more like 5 times. Actually If you count the much greater time off for sick and vacation I have now --the value of an hour worked has gone up even more than that.
And yes there were many jobs that started out making more than I did back when I started. But not many that have grown as much or have the benefits I do combined with that growth.
My take is that kids today are a lot more focused on reality of wages than many of the old school complainers about "today's kids" think. If anything they are worried they will never get ahead given the move towards favoring the wealthy and want to live a little more than many of us did at their age.
They are also MUCH more likely to switch jobs and careers for better benefits and happiness versus maximizing income .
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This is spot on and what I wish someone would have taught me in high school. No matter what you do, you'll be limited when you're working for 'the man'.
Bowmannate2000
Well-known member
My mom got a two year RN degree, going to community college in the evenings, while me and my siblings were young. She did quite well as a nurse. Definitely a good return on investment.
rjthehunter
Well-known member
It is that simple. Look at how many people are grossly in debt due to their choice of college degrees. There is plenty of people who are completely upside down after getting a 4 year teaching degree at a private school. If a teaching degree costs you $30k a year at a private school, you come out with $120k in debt. Your starting salary is roughly $40k. That's a terrible ROI.
Change that scenario to a public college, where tuition would run about $10k a year, you're coming out with $40k in debt, still a lot for starting at $40k a year. But that is deemed the highest debt you should incur based on the expected salary.
This is an OK ROI.
Go to school for something that pays well like Construction management, or IT Security, then you come out of school making $60k and only $40k in debt (Even less if you'd work and cash flow half of your college).
That is a great ROI.
It doesn't matter what you're going to make in 15 years if your debt interest starts accruing at year 1. The longer you hold a debt, the more it costs you. It's a numbers game, not a mind game.
Clark Howard financial rule of "Never borrow more for a four-year degree than the entry-level salary you expect to earn your first year after receiving that degree."
Bonasababy
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Think you are living in the past. Wages have gone up, you can make around 40K flipping burgers and other menial jobs these days.
I think quite a few of our very wealthy citizens would have a bone to pick with Howard too. Education doesn't pay off immediately in many jobs but pay off over time it sure does.
Not at all uncommon to see wage growth zoom up fast these days--even in the same job. Many places have a probationary/interim wage that increases automatically if the employee doesn't screw up.
