Ethics question about OnX sharing

[44hunter45]

Ok,

So I've really been thinking too much about this. Some States do not allow electronic communication use in a way that "assists hunting". Electronic communication being defined as radios, cell phone voice calls, and Cell or Sat phone texting to party locate game.

I use OnX every hunt nowadays, but am proud that I can still scout and get around with an old fashioned paper map.

So here is the question. How does the Hunt Talk Community feel about the ethics of and legality of sharing OnX way points of spotted animals real time?
I won't do it. But the main reason I do not may be that I'm such a hyper ethic nerd that I've chased away all my hunting buddies. I hunt for myself and passing our life on to my Granddaughter.

Sharing routes, campsites, etc, are all fine in my ethos. But the easy temptation to call a mate in on a team kill seems too much to me.

When new technology give us an advantage, there are always those who voluntarily limit themselves, and those whose abuse it. Be it drones, weapons tech, etc. Eventually the abusers drive legislated prohibitions. Drones are a good example. Does waypointing live animals and sharing merit this level of concern?

Thoughts?

 

[Carl 9.3x62]

I would say live sharing waypoints of animal locations is no more legal/ethical than texting or radioing someone with the same info.

However, as a side thought, I wonder if ethics do, or should, evolve with the changing society we live in? I don't know the answer to that one.

 

[Wilderness_56587]

On this same topic I have been wonder about cellular trail cameras and people getting real time pictures while in the deer stand.

 

[jmveverka]

Well when you are sharing a waypoint on OnX you are still texting it or sending via messenger, etc. So that would still violate the electronic communication law if texting is disallowed.

 

[SFC B]

I guess I think of it differently. If I am hunting with buddies and I see an animal that I do not have a tag for and they do, why WOULDN'T I share the location? I suppose it comes from the fact that my buddies and I are primarily meat hunters and I would be helping them fill freezers. I get almost as much satisfaction out of watching others be successful.

 

[406LIFE]

Still illegal in MT to do so, regs are pretty clear:

Two-way electronic communication
(radios, cell phones, text messages, etc.)
may not be used to:
- hunt game animals, or
- avoid game checking stations or FWP
enforcement personnel, or to facilitate
unlawful activity.

I would add that if you aren't in the field, you aren't "hunting".

 

[Deleted member 28227]

As other's have expressed there are laws and then personal ethics. Sharing way points is already illegal in some states.

Personally I think game cameras of any kind are totally unethical, I will not use them for hunting. I also won't use, radios, way point sharing, texts, cell phones, etc. I have no problem with using technology for safety, for e-scouting, or for making sure you are legal eg using onx to make sure you are on public land, but I don't enjoy using technology to make a hunt easier. Certainly there are contradictions here, it's just how I like to do it.

 

[beginnerhunter]

As other's have expressed there are laws and then personal ethics. Sharing way points is already illegal in some states.

Personally I think game cameras of any kinda are totally unethical, I will not use them for hunting. I also won't use, radios, way point sharing, texts, cell phones, etc. I have no problem with using technology for safety, for e-scouting, or for making sure you are legal eg using onx to make sure you are on public land, but I don't enjoy using technology to make a hunt easier. Certainly there are contradictions here, it's just how I like to do it.

The trail cam issue is an example of a cultural difference where the same standard shouldn't be applied universally. If I were using real time trail cameras images on public land to pinpoint game, that would be unethical from my POV (not to mention the potential for invasion of privacy should an unfortunate individual be caught on camera using the outdoor facilities). I'd probably go so far as to say real time trail cameras should be banned on public land.

However, I use trail cameras on private land because, well, I like seeing what is on our property. I get almost as much enjoyment from checking the cameras as I do hunting. It doesn't really help me hunt the animals on our small property. In fact, I may not hunt it at all this year. But for me it's another way to observe nature.

Back to the OP, what about spotting an animal while glassing and marking its location with a waypoint so you can make a stalk. Ethical or no?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The trail cam issue is an example of a cultural difference where the same standard shouldn't be applied universally.

I understand your point. I guess to unravel it a bit more I think game cameras should be illegal on public lands, and legal on private. Although I still wouldn't use them on my own place for hunting. Sure it's cool to see that lion or bear cruising through at 2 am, but putting out 15 cams and then using that info to pattern deer and pick which tree stand to set up in just isn't the way I want to hunt.

 

[devon deer]

Still illegal in MT to do so, regs are pretty clear:

Two-way electronic communication
(radios, cell phones, text messages, etc.)
may not be used to:
- hunt game animals, or
- avoid game checking stations or FWP
enforcement personnel, or to facilitate
unlawful activity.

I would add that if you aren't in the field, you aren't "hunting".

Can you use the radio to call another hunter to advise you have shot an animal and need assistance extracting it?
Cheers
Richard

 

[44hunter45]

Good replies. Good points.

Maybe I'm just virtue signalling.

To add to my reasoning, ethics and fair chase ideals do not evolve with technology. The Fair Chase Ideal is about eschewing the advantages doing what is best for the health of the animals as a species. These ideals came to be before 1600 yard rifles, laser range finders, BDC scopes, drones, cell phones and radios. Local practices (i.e. pursuing deer with dogs in the Southeast. Baiting in other places, etc) aside, what is best for the herd health? Even if herds are in "surplus", they deserve the utmost respect. I'm simply wanting to warn us that as technology become commonplace, we stop thinking of the advantages it gives us.

Next comes the image of hunters to the non-hunting public.
Even the purest meat hunter, which why I buy Idaho extra doe tags, should not be out to find the easiest deer by the road and kill it. In my part of Idaho there is plenty of that going on and all that goes with it. Trespass, road hunting, party hunting, land damage from OHVs and 4X4's, you name it. There is no challenge to being a game killer. The real drug for me is the chase, not the kill. I put a lot of pressure on myself in the woods, but I eat a lot of tags.

 

[44hunter45]

Can you use the radio to call another hunter to advise you have shot an animal and need assistance extracting it?
Cheers
Richard

I have my three strapping sons on speed dial. A way point to a dead bull is FTW.

 

[44hunter45]

The trail cam issue is an example of a cultural difference where the same standard shouldn't be applied universally. If I were using real time trail cameras images on public land to pinpoint game, that would be unethical from my POV (not to mention the potential for invasion of privacy should an unfortunate individual be caught on camera using the outdoor facilities). I'd probably go so far as to say real time trail cameras should be banned on public land.

However, I use trail cameras on private land because, well, I like seeing what is on our property. I get almost as much enjoyment from checking the cameras as I do hunting. It doesn't really help me hunt the animals on our small property. In fact, I may not hunt it at all this year. But for me it's another way to observe nature.

Back to the OP, what about spotting an animal while glassing and marking its location with a waypoint so you can make a stalk. Ethical or no?

You're missing a good chance for a joke. There are plenty of trail cams out there that I've mooned over the years.

 

[44hunter45]

You're missing a good chance for a joke. There are plenty of trail cams out there that I've mooned over the years.

That's why you wear a balaclava. So they can't see your face.

 

[rwc101]

Trail cams are great out east if you're managing a piece of private land. They help you keep tabs on the population as well as trespassers. Out west, I think it's a fun game in the off season to pick a species and try to get it on cam.

 

[44hunter45]

The trail cam issue is an example of a cultural difference where the same standard shouldn't be applied universally. If I were using real time trail cameras images on public land to pinpoint game, that would be unethical from my POV (not to mention the potential for invasion of privacy should an unfortunate individual be caught on camera using the outdoor facilities). I'd probably go so far as to say real time trail cameras should be banned on public land.

However, I use trail cameras on private land because, well, I like seeing what is on our property. I get almost as much enjoyment from checking the cameras as I do hunting. It doesn't really help me hunt the animals on our small property. In fact, I may not hunt it at all this year. But for me it's another way to observe nature.

Back to the OP, what about spotting an animal while glassing and marking its location with a waypoint so you can make a stalk. Ethical or no?

To answer your last question, I think laying in a waypoint for a stalk is just good hunting practice. I don't check that phone WP unless I get totally holed up along the way. Here in N. Idaho there can be nasty canyons full blow down between you and that buck or bull. I mostly keep a mental WP and use my windchecker to move closer. I am of the get as close as you can for a confident shot mindset.

I also drop a waypoint when I shoot in case I have to go back and stand there for reference if the recovery goes a little sideways. I feel any technology or practice (even blood tracking dogs.) are MORE ethical if not used before the shot but to prevent wound loss after the shot. We all hope for Dead Right There (I name my rifles, my .264 WM is named DiRT), but it just doesn't realistically happen every time.

 

[beginnerhunter]

I understand your point. I guess to unravel it a bit more I think game cameras should be illegal on public lands, and legal on private. Although I still wouldn't use them on my own place for hunting. Sure it's cool to see that lion or bear cruising through at 2 am, but putting out 15 cams and then using that info to pattern deer and pick which tree stand to set up in just isn't the way I want to hunt.

Mark Kenyon made a good point on the meateater podcast about how whitetail hunting private land in the east is often about the work you put in prior to the actual hunt itself. Whereas, aside from research, hunting the west is about the work you put in during the hunt. A hardworking hunter is willing to hike miles and miles over rough terrain to locate western game. I know deer are around our property. But if I hike 10 miles in circles around our 40 acre property it will only move all the deer to another location (a location I cant set foot on). So the work happens prior to the season, easing in and out trying to create conditions suitable for game and getting a shot at them. Honestly this type of hunting is appealing to me less over time but thankfully we have an abundance of public land I can hunt the way I find more enjoyable.

 

[406LIFE]

Can you use the radio to call another hunter to advise you have shot an animal and need assistance extracting it?
Cheers
Richard

I'm not a game warden, but I have posed this question and the response was that would be ok since you are "no longer hunting".

 

[44hunter45]

Mark Kenyon made a good point on the meateater podcast about how whitetail hunting private land in the east is often about the work you put in prior to the actual hunt itself. Whereas, aside from research, hunting the west is about the work you put in during the hunt. A hardworking hunter is willing to hike miles and miles over rough terrain to locate western game. I know deer are around our property. But if I hike 10 miles in circles around our 40 acre property it will only move all the deer to another location (a location I cant set foot on). So the work happens prior to the season, easing in and out trying to create conditions suitable for game and getting a shot at them. Honestly this type of hunting is appealing to me less over time but thankfully we have an abundance of public land I can hunt the way I find more enjoyable.

We have 40 acres here in Idaho, so I see both sides of this. I agree with you. I enjoy both small property and big country hunting. I use a tree stand for WT on my property, but not trail cams. I feel if I am out walking my place year round, the resident deer know me anyway. They sure as heck know my fruit trees and hay stack. When it's really cold, they hit my heated stock tank every day. When they see me out, they go out of sight, but they aren't heading for the neighbor's. Those does have looked right at me in my stand and gone back to feeding The tree stand is my hope to catch that cruising buck in the rut. I don't get the whole thing about taking "deer inventory" and choosing a "target buck" though. I have a vague age class goal, but a 140 buck is a fine prize in my neighborhood. The irony is that the best bucks here are on public land.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Mark Kenyon made a good point on the meateater podcast about how whitetail hunting private land in the east is often about the work you put in prior to the actual hunt itself. Whereas, aside from research, hunting the west is about the work you put in during the hunt. A hardworking hunter is willing to hike miles and miles over rough terrain to locate western game. I know deer are around our property. But if I hike 10 miles in circles around our 40 acre property it will only move all the deer to another location (a location I cant set foot on). So the work happens prior to the season, easing in and out trying to create conditions suitable for game and getting a shot at them. Honestly this type of hunting is appealing to me less over time but thankfully we have an abundance of public land I can hunt the way I find more enjoyable.

So I haven't actually done this so take it with a grain of salt... and obviously experience is going to change a persons mind.

That being said, to me, being in the field is an important factor. I learn where elk are by scouting before a hunt. This means hiking in on my days off before the hunt, getting up before first light and being in my glassing spot looking for elk before the sun rises... weeks, and months before the season.

To Kenyon's point success is about the work you put in prior to the hunt. To me sitting on your butt watching breaking bad, and then driving around to your cameras with the 4wheeler isn't work. Now putting up stands around your property, months before the season and sitting in various ones for every weekend and observing how the deer our using your property... that's putting in the work.

This is not to say if you put up cameras I would give you a hard time or think any less of the deer you killed, but for me and me alone to feel like I "earned it" that's what I would need to do.

I've hunted some on private for deer, turkey, pheasant... and to be honest I'm always kinda left with a weird feeling like it came to easy, like the game was rigged or the odds were too much in my favor... I dk something. I've had plenty of public land hunts where I got totally skunked but had this feeling of accomplishment, because of some "suck" factor I had to endure.

So to each their own, and no judgement, game cameras are just one of those things that would keep me from really enjoying my hunt. Rinella on one of the podcasts, with regard to bear hunting, said something along the lines of "It's not that I think there is anything wrong with bating it's just that I only have so many hunts in my life and I'm not particularly interested in using one of mine on that particular experience."