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“Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”-Leopold
Ethical or Not?
- Thread starter wyoelkfan15
- Start date
“Ethical behavior is doing the right thing when no one else is watching- even when doing the wrong thing is legal.”-Leopold
They had taken the video down when I tried to find it a couple of months ago.
Aussie_hunter_JD
Well-known member
Yeah but I hunt new Zealand and have plenty kiwi mates that do so and it's not the norm nor is it considered ethical by anyone who actually lives there. Just because something is legal doesn't make it right, plenty of examples in life of that. So the when in Rome mentality really doesn't cut it here. Meaning no offense to anyone but when you're hunting and see a heli above which does happen, we think "there goes another fat rich American", not "well it's legal so that's ethical".
Put yourself in a hunters shoes, how would feel about it being a legal method of take for bighorn, bull elk etc? Would you be happy to see animals you could have hunted shot from the sky because it's legal?
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Aussie_hunter_JD
Well-known member
Link to video
https://youtu.be/UkQA5DDNkNI
To appreciate it, look at the shots of where they are in relation to the ground and consider how far a true hunter would have to hike to get up to those animals. That's what it takes and that's what the absolute vast majority does.
Nothing stopped these guys doing things the right way, to be honest tahr and chamois aren't even that hard to hunt except for the country they live in.
https://youtu.be/UkQA5DDNkNI
To appreciate it, look at the shots of where they are in relation to the ground and consider how far a true hunter would have to hike to get up to those animals. That's what it takes and that's what the absolute vast majority does.
Nothing stopped these guys doing things the right way, to be honest tahr and chamois aren't even that hard to hunt except for the country they live in.
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I don't see what all the fuss is about. Unethical? Not if it's legal and they weren't interfering with DIY hunters, in this particular instance. Is it an over-hyped non-accomplishment? Absolutely. Would I do it? Sure, but I wouldn't call it hunting. I'd call it an amazing sight-seeing flight on which I harvested some exotic meat because I brought a rifle just in case I saw a legally harvest-able animal. If people want to over-hype this kind of hunt in order to get more views and, therefore, more revenue, more power to them. We all over-hype things to increase our income. Have you never overstated your qualifications on a resume?
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Topgun 30-06
Active member
Baloney! Something doesn't have to be ethical just because it's not illegal on the books! Did you watch that video or any of the other garbage that I mentioned in my posts that the Hushin crew and Casey have put out on youtube? If you haven't, do so, and you may change your tune in a hurry because they are far from ethical hunters no matter whether they are legal or not. If it was so ethical and legal why do you think they took it down?
It should go without saying that legal does not necessarily imply ethical, but that's why I said "in this particular instance." If it's legal to hunt out of a helicopter, it's not unethical as long as there are no other hunters around whose hunt would be impacted and the hunter is actually attempting to make a one-shot lethal kill. They took the video down (I presume) because they didn't like the negative attention. That by itself is neither an admission nor evidence of unethical behavior. I watched the headshot video. Assuming the person taking the shot is of sufficient skill level, it's not any less ethical than shooting an arrow more than 50 yards. There isn't enough in the video to make a judgement.
Topgun 30-06
Active member
You're digging a hole for yourself since now it appears that you're reversing what you stated earlier when you said essentially that legal and ethical are the same thing! There is nothing mentioned about other hunters being impacted, so I have no idea how you came up with that one. Did you not watch the film and see that the chopper was actually harassing and moving game back to the hunters after they were dropped off to get the guy a shot at one? If you watched that head shot video that was from almost 1/2 mile and can claim that it was as ethical as an archer shooting an arrow at more than 50 yards, then Sir, I think you're about the only one on this Forum that thinks the way you do and for that I'm glad!
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
NO! Have you?
mrcowboy
Well-known member
A friend showed me the Fire Bull video. All I needed to see from these Knuckle heads. He was damn lucky to get that bull.
I have. It became obvious during the interview. Still got the job. Everyone who sells themselves is in some sense, overstating their qualifications. Is it unethical? Not if you don't say something that isn't true. Is it inauthentic? Yes to some degree, and authenticity is something I look for when I interview people. But I give some grace because I know what it's like to compete for your livelihood. Youtube is no exception.
Can you elaborate? I agree that he was very lucky, but what was unethical in your view? Was the shot too far? Did he not try hard enough to recover it?
Aussie_hunter_JD
Well-known member
@jtm307 mate you're dragging this way off topic.
I didn't want to start a poo fight, I just wanted to point out from someone that lives down this way that it is certainly not the norm nor is it considered ethical. Unless you would support the legalisation of helihunting of your big game by wealthy tourists on public land in the states then you need to really think this through.
I'm passionate about wildlife and the outdoors all over the world which is why i read with interest some of the issues you have in the states. Things that don't personally impact me necessarily. Which is why i don't prescribe to the notion that we have one rule of ethics here but think its fine to rape and pillage resources on the other side of the world just because it doesn't directly impact you.
I didn't want to start a poo fight, I just wanted to point out from someone that lives down this way that it is certainly not the norm nor is it considered ethical. Unless you would support the legalisation of helihunting of your big game by wealthy tourists on public land in the states then you need to really think this through.
I'm passionate about wildlife and the outdoors all over the world which is why i read with interest some of the issues you have in the states. Things that don't personally impact me necessarily. Which is why i don't prescribe to the notion that we have one rule of ethics here but think its fine to rape and pillage resources on the other side of the world just because it doesn't directly impact you.
Straight Arrow
Well-known member
Interesting in that you and I differ with respect to ethical standards and likely other frames of reference. Different folks ... different ... basically inherently "wired" differently. But I would contend there is a fairly universal set of ethics and values, to which many have alluded on this thread with various points. As you have illustrated, one can choose to adhere to their own individual ethical standards, but in my experience that leads to a problem now and then.
mrcowboy
Well-known member
If I recall the video correctly, it was raining for most of this hunt. He was way to preoccupied by videoing taping this event. The rain (can't recall if it was raining during his shot) + long shot (~90yds) + potential to have to follow a blood trail in wet conditions isn't what I would call an ethical choice. I'm very glad he got it and it didn't become just forage for the coyotes. I do realize it would be the bull of a life time for most of us. The decision to release or not would be tough. I guess my point is, I wouldn't have been comfortable with taking a shot that far with my bow. I do feel that some folks take some archery shots that are too far and risky. For me, archery is partly about can I get close to the animal via the stalk. I would like to hear others thoughts on the subject of long shots.
COEngineer
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 6, 2016
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deleted, not worth it
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@ Aussie_hunter_JD
I’m not in a position to question what you say about how most hunters there would view this. I’m less interested in changing anyone’s mind than I am just looking for better articulated opinions. Knowing how hunters in your neck of the woods feel certainly helps me achieve that end. Most people believing something is unethical, however, does not automatically make it unethical. Accessing hunting ground by helicopter is legal in some states, although more restrictive. I’m personally not interested in decreasing other hunters’ “unfair” privilege. If they can afford to fly or ride instead of hike, as long as I have the same legal right to the resource, I have no animosity toward them. It just makes my own success that much more of an accomplishment.
@ Straight Arrow
I agree with everything you say, but I’ve yet to read any well-articulated arguments explaining what universal moral principles Hushin violated. So far, everything I’ve read is about feelings of unfairness. That’s not unimportant, but if I’m going to unequivocally label someone unethical, I need more than that.
@mrcowboy
Thank you. I agree with you, but none of that was obvious in the video as I remember it.
I’m not in a position to question what you say about how most hunters there would view this. I’m less interested in changing anyone’s mind than I am just looking for better articulated opinions. Knowing how hunters in your neck of the woods feel certainly helps me achieve that end. Most people believing something is unethical, however, does not automatically make it unethical. Accessing hunting ground by helicopter is legal in some states, although more restrictive. I’m personally not interested in decreasing other hunters’ “unfair” privilege. If they can afford to fly or ride instead of hike, as long as I have the same legal right to the resource, I have no animosity toward them. It just makes my own success that much more of an accomplishment.
@ Straight Arrow
I agree with everything you say, but I’ve yet to read any well-articulated arguments explaining what universal moral principles Hushin violated. So far, everything I’ve read is about feelings of unfairness. That’s not unimportant, but if I’m going to unequivocally label someone unethical, I need more than that.
@mrcowboy
Thank you. I agree with you, but none of that was obvious in the video as I remember it.
Can you provide a quote wherein I said I was OK with lying on a resume or with harassing wildlife with a helicopter? If you would like a detailed account of what I overstated (I said nothing that wasn't true) on my very first job application out of college, I'll gladly give it to you.
Aussie_hunter_JD
Well-known member
Accessing areas to hunt by helicopter and chasing animals from a helicopter until they're exhausted and then landing next to them and shooting are very very different things.
The universal ethic is fair chase, it's a respect for the sport, for other hunters but far and above all for the animals. That shouldn't be subjective to anyone.
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Topgun 30-06
Active member
***It's no use discussing this with him any longer because it's obvious that he's not digesting what several of us have posted. It was easy to see in the video that the chopper went way out after he dropped them off and then went back and forth until it chased the two animals up to where the guy was able to shoot one of them. That is not ethical or even close to fair chase! The firebull in one of the other videos being discussed was close to 100 yards in the rain on the first shot with his bow and about the same with the second shot a week later to the point when he drew back you couldn't even see the bull other than when he had zoomed in on it once before the shot. He was lucky to take that bull as the arrow still had the fletching sticking out due to the distance he shot even though the arrow luckily hit the vitals. The other two videos I mentioned are terrible when a guy misses the vitals of a broadside bull by 4' and then takes a shot as it runs straight away from him increasing the long distance he shot the first time even further. Then they talk the thing up when it goes down with a shot in the back of the head like the guys was trying for that shot when it was actually just a wish and a prayer shot. The other videoed bull was over 800 yards and almost broadside when the guy shot and hit it in the head and they played it up like he was actually trying for a head shot with the video being titled "Amazing Head Shot" when it should have been "Dumbazz Misses Vitals by 4'" on that one too! Anyone saying anything positive regarding any of these videos would not be welcome in any camp I hunt in!
Irrelevant
Well-known member
Damn, this thread went from hilarious to boring. Can we steer it back on topic. In the hero shot posted earlier, by biggest question is where were all the tears? It can't be Hushin without some crying, even if you gotta pull yer nose hairs to fake it.
