ESG (Environmental – Social – Governance) and Conservation Tags

[OriginalOscar]

Periodically I’ve been asked about ESG (Environmental, Social, Governance) consideration with investments or causes. To paraphrase the issue; do I divest from companies which may produce fossil fuels, invest in Russia, do not support certain causes, etc, etc. It is a fair question and personally I’ve tried to divest from companies which export jobs, ties to China, or violate human/worker rights.

Recently HuntTalk had the annual Outdoor Expo thread which digressed to false accusations, personal attacks and statements of virtuous ethics regarding sale of public property (wildlife), to highest bidder through states donating conservation tags.

Here’s the question based on our personal ESG evaluation, regarding states donating conservations tags; and information below; #1 states/province who provided public property (wildlife tag) for auction at HuntExpo 2023, #2 Hunt Expo does comply with accepted audit standard as required by Utah Division of Wildlife which supplies majority of conservation tags.

Q – Will you continue to apply or purchase permits/tags in states/province which donated public property for auction? YES / NO

#1 - 2023 Outdoor Expo Auctions shows the states of; UT, NM, WY, CO, WA, CA, AZ, MT, NV, OR, TX, and province AB all donated tags.​

# 2 - Utah Division of Wildlife 2022 Hunt Expo Auction Audit - https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/board_minutes/2022-expo-permit-audit.pdf​

Simple YES/NO with a couple notes if you are; black/white, grey area, or no objections on this question. And use your name; anonymity on social media/forums feeds trolls and attacks.

Troy Rushton – Riverton UT

 

[hank4elk]

Hell no.

 

[BackofBeyond]

I reject the BS requirement of single word answers, Hunt Talk is a forum for DISCUSSION.

And there’s a big difference between a donated tag just about any other group and a donated tag to that grift outfit $FW.

 

[Salmonchaser]

Yes***
Generally speaking. I don't think it hurts a thing for the mule deer foundation to auction off a tag for a high quality hunt as long as they can show what they are spending the money on.
But one word answers and single issue politics has gotten us where we are. I'd really like to see the data on the organizations eligibility before I lend my support.
Now for my coffee....
With half a cup down it appears I did not read the entire question, I should know better...

 

[Big Fin]

A: Yes, I will apply in those states, as it's not the fact that a state has an auction tag at the Expo, rather what protocols they have for the proceeds, the transparency and accountability, and the scope/degree of the tag numbers.

To compare Arizona, which requires 100% of the money go back to AZG&F and only has two auction and two raffle tags for each species, to Utah, which has 500+ and allows the tag money to be the funding mechanism for some organizations, makes the question asked a poor attempt at false equivalency.

 

[TOGIE]

i'll remain anonymous thanks.

 

[bennirio]

I'll continue to apply in all the states I currently do. Which is every mountain west state. I don't do the raffles at the hunt expo in my home state of Utah. Just never really felt right and with a strategy you can hunt elk and deer every year somewhere in the west. Plus I feel when I purchase a license or tag from another state that money goes directly to that state.

 

[SAJ-99]

Yes.

 

[MTGomer]

I’ll continue to apply in Utah.
As bad as the pilfering of the public trust is, there are far worse atrocities that are a product of the weird state/cult alliance that is unique to Utah.

 

[SAJ-99]

@OriginalOscar, I think the comparison to ESG for investment capital is a bit off, but I think your core point is still made. My question would be, is there any western state that doesn't do these auctions of tags for fund raising? To @Big Fin 's point, what the money is used for matters. If the resource benefits, then it is net positive. I know they are very important for sheep and while my immediate reaction to the news of someone shooting a ram on an auction tag, I think knowing how the money is used is important. Also, at the end of the day, even if I don't like it, I have to be practical. If I want to hunt, I have to apply. Being stubborn means I will end up sitting at home railing on the internet about how life isn't fair.

 

[BuzzH]

A: Yes, I will apply in those states, as it's not the fact that a state has an auction tag at the Expo, rather what protocols they have for the proceeds, the transparency and accountability, and the scope/degree of the tag numbers.

To compare Arizona, which requires 100% of the money go back to AZG&F and only has two auction and two raffle tags for each species, to Utah, which has 500+ and allows the tag money to be the funding mechanism for some organizations, makes the question asked a poor attempt at false equivalency.

In simple terms, your question is a joke just like SFW.

 

[Salmonchaser]

A: Yes, I will apply in those states, as it's not the fact that a state has an auction tag at the Expo, rather what protocols they have for the proceeds, the transparency and accountability, and the scope/degree of the tag numbers.

To compare Arizona, which requires 100% of the money go back to AZG&F and only has two auction and two raffle tags for each species, to Utah, which has 500+ and allows the tag money to be the funding mechanism for some organizations, makes the question asked a poor attempt at false equivalency.

This is what I wanted to know about any organization selling tags.

 

[OriginalOscar]

A: Yes, I will apply in those states, as it's not the fact that a state has an auction tag at the Expo, rather what protocols they have for the proceeds, the transparency and accountability, and the scope/degree of the tag numbers.

To compare Arizona, which requires 100% of the money go back to AZG&F and only has two auction and two raffle tags for each species, to Utah, which has 500+ and allows the tag money to be the funding mechanism for some organizations, makes the question asked a poor attempt at false equivalency.

The audit link clearly demonstrates Utah DWR has protocols, transparency and accountability; which makes the statement false and implies Utah DWR is either negligent or culpable in misuse of conservation tags.

Scope/degree of tag numbers each state commits to conservation auctions; I agree is subjective.

I would also remind amazing things happen when conservation minded organizations collaborate. Purchase of Cinnamon Creek WMA in 2021; the organizations noted below raised $20M in 90 days to conserve 8,100 acres.

several partners who have committed significant funding, including the Mule Deer Foundation, Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife, the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation, The Nature Conservancy, the State of Utah and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service.

RMEF Funding Helps Conserve, Secure Access to 8,107 Acres of Utah Wildlife Habitat | Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation

Below is a news release from the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources was named as the winning bid on [...]

www.rmef.org

 

[MTGomer]

While they are pilfering Utah’s public trust to line their own pockets, I wonder if the SFW grifters are staying true to their good old boy values, and making sure to put 10% of that grift into the much larger grift.

WSJ News Exclusive | Mormon Church’s Investment Arm Under Investigation by SEC

The $100 billion portfolio of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was long a secret in the investment world.

www.wsj.com

 

[Big Fin]

The audit link clearly demonstrates Utah DWR has protocols, transparency and accountability; which makes the statement false and implies Utah DWR is either negligent or culpable in misuse of conservation tags.

I'm a CPA. I know a few things about audits. That link doesn't prove anything if you understand how a true audit works, in this case a Yellow Book Audit under Governmental Auditing Standards. That "audit" is not even close to what an audit under GAGAS would be. I spent years looking into the UT tag programs. I stand by my statement, regardless of how you want to restate what I said.

Ask 10 CPAs to give a detailed look into this program and give their opinion. I'm confident that 10 of them would agree with me.

 

[abqbw]

While they are pilfering Utah’s public trust to line their own pockets, I wonder if the SFW grifters are staying true to their good old boy values, and making sure to put 10% of that grift into the much larger grift.

WSJ News Exclusive | Mormon Church’s Investment Arm Under Investigation by SEC

The $100 billion portfolio of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was long a secret in the investment world.

www.wsj.com

Whistle blowers are my spirit animals. I have been following this story for a few years. You pose a good question. How much of the Utah tag grift dinero makes it to The Church?

 

[westbranch]

I'm a CPA. I know a few things about audits. That link doesn't prove anything if you understand how a true audit works, in this case a Yellow Book Audit under Governmental Auditing Standards. That "audit" is not even close to what an audit under GAGAS would be. I spent years looking into the UT tag programs. I stand by my statement, regardless of how you want to restate what I said.

Ask 10 CPAs to give a detailed look into this program and give their opinion. I'm confident that 10 of them would agree with me.

I think we're 2 for 2 at least. It wouldn't even meet the lower standards of non YB audits. I have hard time seeing how it would even be a true internal audit like the report states.

 

[shrapnel]

I’m not an accountant, but I did call Kenny Johnson from the linked documents on the first post. I asked him if the expo and its sponsors did inappropriate actions with tags and money that would suggest wrongdoing and a disservice to the hunters and sportsmen of Utah. He told me that they audit the records of the expo and he assured me there isn’t any such activity going on.

I am unclear where the problem is in regards to this outdoor show and have one side claiming foul and the Department of Natural Resources Division of Wildlife Services, which audits the expo, saying otherwise.


State of Utah
SPENCER J.COX Governor
DEIDRE M. HENDERSON Lieutenant Governor
Department of Natural Resources
JOEL FERRY Bxecutive Director
Division of Wildlife Resources
.J SHIRLEY Division Director
August 12, 2022
J. Shirley, Director, Division of Wildlife Resources Kevin Albrecht, Chairman, Utah Wildlife Board Randy Dearth, Vice Chairman, Utah Wildlife Board Utah Wildlife Board Members
RE: 2022 Expo Permit Internal Audit - Rule 657-55 Dear Director Shirley andWildlife Board Members,
In accordance with Rule R657-55, an audit of the Expo Permit program has been conducted. This audit isattached for your review and the
resultswill be presented at the Utah Wildlife Board Meeting on August 25, 2022.
If you have any questions please contact me at 801-538-7437.
Sincerely,
K e n n yI o h n s o n
Administrative Services Chief
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

 

[Big Fin]

I’m not an accountant, but I did call Kenny Johnson from the linked documents on the first post. I asked him if the expo and its sponsors did inappropriate actions with tags and money that would suggest wrongdoing and a disservice to the hunters and sportsmen of Utah. He told me that they audit the records of the expo and he assured me there isn’t any such activity going on.

I am unclear where the problem is in regards to this outdoor show and have one side claiming foul and the Department of Natural Resources Division of Wildlife Services, which audits the expo, saying otherwise.


State of Utah
SPENCER J.COX Governor
DEIDRE M. HENDERSON Lieutenant Governor
Department of Natural Resources
JOEL FERRY Bxecutive Director
Division of Wildlife Resources
.J SHIRLEY Division Director
August 12, 2022
J. Shirley, Director, Division of Wildlife Resources Kevin Albrecht, Chairman, Utah Wildlife Board Randy Dearth, Vice Chairman, Utah Wildlife Board Utah Wildlife Board Members
RE: 2022 Expo Permit Internal Audit - Rule 657-55 Dear Director Shirley andWildlife Board Members,
In accordance with Rule R657-55, an audit of the Expo Permit program has been conducted. This audit isattached for your review and the
resultswill be presented at the Utah Wildlife Board Meeting on August 25, 2022.
If you have any questions please contact me at 801-538-7437.
Sincerely,
K e n n yJo h n s o n
Administrative Services Chief
Utah Division of Wildlife Resources

The count is still 2 for 2 on CPAs weighing in on this. As you state, you are not a CPA, nor is Oscar, nor is Kenny Johnson.

First, the "internal audit report." Most don't know what an internal audit is and how different an internal audit is compared to an audit a publicly traded company is subjected to or what a Governmental Agency goes through under Yellow Book standards. Most folks see "audit" and they think it is some exhaustive effort. It can be exhaustive, if done according to GAGAS or GAS, but an internal audit is not.

Go read the report - it says explicitly "this was not conducted according to Generally Accepted Governmental Auditing Standards." What was done is not even close to what the CPA world considers an outside independent audit under Generally Accepted Governmental Auditing Standards.

Now the funny part. I was going to just let this thread move along, but folks seem to be placing confidence in an "internal audit" of a program that isn't even the auction tag program.

Here is the question asked - Q – Will you continue to apply or purchase permits/tags in states/province which donated public property for auction?

The internal audit report does not address these auction tags Oscar refers to above. Those are called "Conservation Permits" That flimsy internal audit report only covers the 200 raffle tags, known as "Expo Permits".

I'm not making this up. Go read the report. It says "Expo Permits." It says nothing about "Conservation Permits." But, Oscar claims I'm making some unfounded aspersions and implications.

That report does not mention the 500+ auction tags, the "Conservation Permits" that get sold for the big dollars that has folks bragging about the Expo. That's the big program; the program putting a lot more money in the pockets of groups with very loose rules as to how the groups have to account for it. Only 30% of the auction tag money goes to UTDWR. The other 70% goes to mostly two groups, MDF and SFW.

I find it laugahble that @OriginalOscar asks his question in the context of auction tags, yet the auction tag program is not the program in the link he provided to give the Conservation Permit auction program some sort of credibility; almost trying to sanitize it.

I've lost much interest in what Utah does with their tags and how much prostitution they allow of their wildlife. If I was a Utah citizen, I would be demanding these programs (both the Expo Permits and Conservation Permits), the UTDWR, and the groups who receive these tag proceeds, be subjected to a Yellow Book audit under GAGAS. I'm not a Utah citizen, so that's moot.

I know a lot of good Utah folks who would like to see this stuff reeled in, but the money coming from the auction tags is what is used to keep grease on the legislative skids, so the effort of residents to implement change is nearly impossible. It becomes a self-perpetuating program; get the tags and make the auction money, then use the money to buy the influence to keep the money flowing.

I leave it up to Utah folks to decide what they want to do with their public assets, such as tags. Yet, when folks come here and want to post this kind of smoke and mirrors, I'll call BS.

Again, I stand by my statements.

Carry on.....

 

[abqbw]

I'll continue to apply in all the states I currently do. Which is every mountain west state. I don't do the raffles at the hunt expo in my home state of Utah. Just never really felt right and with a strategy you can hunt elk and deer every year somewhere in the west. Plus I feel when I purchase a license or tag from another state that money goes directly to that state.

“With a strategy you can hunt elk and deer every year somewhere in the west”. With a strategy AND a lot of money and time. Too many of us that have a strategy, money, and time to do this miss the important fact that the majority of western state hunters do not have the good fortune to have the time and money to throw away the considerable non refundable cost of all the applications and nonresident license fees to hop around the west and beyond to hunt because they can’t get tags in their own state. And try paying for it for 2 or 3 kids that you want to teach the hunting lifestyle. The only way most westerners hunt and get their kids into hunting is on home state tags and draw odds. Western states are the only region in the country where residents very ability to be big game hunters is threatened by nonresidents. You said it yourself - you apply in all the mountain states. You didn’t mention Ohio, Texas, Pennsylvania.

The Game Warden of New Mexico Tinidad C de Baca knew this all the way back in 1914 when he wrote ““The poor man who must be able to capture game near his home, if at all, is entitled to as much consideration as the rich man who can afford to travel long distances and expend large sums of money for his pleasure”

His predecessor wrote during 1911, before New Mexico was even a state, “… it has become a settled principle of law, sustained by the courts,-that our wild game belongs to all the people, and not to a favored few. …the license system is …the only system that enables the sportsman of moderate means to share the field sports with his more fortunate neighbor.”

New Mexico and Utah especially and the other western states to varying degrees would do well to look back at what the first two Wardens for New Mexico knew over a hundred years ago. The wealthy, privileged, and influential are going to be coming after the common people’s ability to hunt. Words to that effect are foundational to the North American Model. We knew it was coming and just opened the door and let it in.

And what is our response ? With a strategy and money you can just work around the system so to hell with your fellow citizens that can’t.

I don’t know how many times when I bitch about New Mexico’s EPLUS private elk tag system whereby 40% of NM bull elk licenses sell for an average $6,000 and up to $20,000+ and are bought 90% by nonresidents, that the EPLUS tags aren’t resident or nonresident, if New Mexicans don’t buy em they don’t deserve em anyway.