ESG (Environmental – Social – Governance) and Conservation Tags

[shrapnel]

The count is still 2 for 2 on CPAs weighing in on this. As you state, you are not a CPA, nor is Oscar, nor is Kenny Johnson.

First, the "internal audit report." Most don't know what an internal audit is and how different an internal audit is compared to an audit a publicly traded company is subjected to or what a Governmental Agency goes through under Yellow Book standards. Most folks see "audit" and they think it is some exhaustive effort. It can be exhaustive, if done according to GAGAS or GAS, but an internal audit is not.

Go read the report - it says explicitly "this was not conducted according to Generally Accepted Governmental Auditing Standards." What was done is not even close to what the CPA world considers an outside independent audit under Generally Accepted Governmental Auditing Standards.

Now the funny part. I was going to just let this thread move along, but folks seem to be placing confidence in an "internal audit" of a program that isn't even the auction tag program.



The internal audit report does not address these auction tags Oscar refers to above. Those are called "Conservation Permits" That flimsy internal audit report only covers the 200 raffle tags, known as "Expo Permits".

I'm not making this up. Go read the report. It says "Expo Permits." It says nothing about "Conservation Permits." But, Oscar claims I'm making some unfounded aspersions and implications.

That report does not mention the 500+ auction tags, the "Conservation Permits" that get sold for the big dollars that has folks bragging about the Expo. That's the big program; the program putting a lot more money in the pockets of groups with very loose rules as to how the groups have to account for it. Only 30% of the auction tag money goes to UTDWR. The other 70% goes to mostly two groups, MDF and SFW.

I find it laugahble that @OriginalOscar asks his question in the context of auction tags, yet the auction tag program is not the program in the link he provided to give the Conservation Permit auction program some sort of credibility; almost trying to sanitize it.

I've lost much interest in what Utah does with their tags and how much prostitution they allow of their wildlife. If I was a Utah citizen, I would be demanding these programs (both the Expo Permits and Conservation Permits), the UTDWR, and the groups who receive these tag proceeds, be subjected to a Yellow Book audit under GAGAS. I'm not a Utah citizen, so that's moot.

I know a lot of good Utah folks who would like to see this stuff reeled in, but the money coming from the auction tags is what is used to keep grease on the legislative skids, so the effort of residents to implement change is nearly impossible. It becomes a self-perpetuating program; get the tags and make the auction money, then use the money to buy the influence to keep the money flowing.

I leave it up to Utah folks to decide what they want to do with their public assets, such as tags. Yet, when folks come here and want to post this kind of smoke and mirrors, I'll call BS.

Again, I stand by my statements.

Carry on.....

OK, I’m just trying to understand the hatred that was exhibited here about the expo. I don’t apply for Utah tags, I have no interest in Utah tags, but how that hatred spilled over to the name calling and bringing a church into the mix, doesn’t seem to promote objectivity into the dialogue.

I will have to take your word as an accountant that the audit is invalid, but hopefully you can see how many people jumped on the bandwagon of calling out all the promoters and expo itself as a waste of time and money, yet some of the organizations that were supposed to be afoul of the expo, still participated.

I also saw thousands of Utah and other residents there that didn’t appear concerned about corruption. I guess it doesn’t matter who goes or why, I know I enjoyed it and didn’t go to support anti hunting platforms or to enter any lotteries for cheap or scarce tags…

 

[Salmonchaser]

Amazing how much can be learned if you're not careful.....
Now to follow up in my home state of Oregon. Volume of auction tags is only about 1/2 dozen elk and 1/2 dozen mule deer tags, (from memory) but now I really would like to know what is done with the money.

 

[BuzzH]

OK, I’m just trying to understand the hatred that was exhibited here about the expo. I don’t apply for Utah tags, I have no interest in Utah tags, but how that hatred spilled over to the name calling and bringing a church into the mix, doesn’t seem to promote objectivity into the dialogue.

I will have to take your word as an accountant that the audit is invalid, but hopefully you can see how many people jumped on the bandwagon of calling out all the promoters and expo itself as a waste of time and money, yet some of the organizations that were supposed to be afoul of the expo, still participated.

I also saw thousands of Utah and other residents there that didn’t appear concerned about corruption. I guess it doesn’t matter who goes or why, I know I enjoyed it and didn’t go to support anti hunting platforms or to enter any lotteries for cheap or scarce tags…

There are more than thousands of wilfully ignorant people in the world.

The allure of a $5 tag, flat brims, and bedazzled jeans make them that way. All promoted in the scam Capitol of the world.

The whole thing is rotten to the core, go read the links I posted in the other thread. Educate yourself or remain with the wilfully ignorant...your choice.

 

[shrapnel]

There are more than thousands of wilfully ignorant people in the world.

The allure of a $5 tag, flat brims, and bedazzled jeans make them that way. All promoted in the scam Capitol of the world.

The whole thing is rotten to the core, go read the links I posted in the other thread. Educate yourself or remain with the wilfully ignorant...your choice.

I will gladly ignore you and your heavy handed opinions. You could moderate your personal views and get more accomplished if you weren’t so sure of yourself. You are not the popular opining monument you think you are…

 

[TheTone]

The Utah system is broken junk. Tons of tags taken from the public to be given at the expo and then others taken and sold to the highest bidder. I’ve never figured out why Utah residents are fine waiting 20+ years to draw a tag when the same tags are being hunted every year by the same people with a tag they bought at an auction under the guise of funding conservation.

 

[Big Fin]

.... but hopefully you can see how many people jumped on the bandwagon of calling out all the promoters and expo itself as a waste of time and money, yet some of the organizations that were supposed to be afoul of the expo, still participated.

I also saw thousands of Utah and other residents there that didn’t appear concerned about corruption. I guess it doesn’t matter who goes or why, I know I enjoyed it and didn’t go to support anti hunting platforms or to enter any lotteries for cheap or scarce tags…

Your observation is correct. Most people have no idea how the gig works and that the auction tag money is the problem it is. I didn't understand it and I went to the first three Expos.

It wasn't until one of the sponsoring groups, Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife (SFW), and their sister group Big Game Forever (BGF) used this money to try ruin wolf delisting in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming that I even decided to look into it. When I was told these groups were working behind the scenes to kill our idea, I told the guy he was crazy. That couldn't be.

Well, turns out I was the one who was uninformed. They were trying to do that. They finally got caught and then me and others were the bad guy for telling the hunting world what SFW/BGF was doing with this money.

When they came after me publicly, I decided to look into this mess. As a CPA who can sleuth financial statements, along with some Utah attorneys, and help from some former SFW Board members who had left in opposition, it didn't take long to find out what was going on. It got to the point that the Founder of SFW challenged me to a publicly televised debate in Utah. I accepted. He pulled out when he found out he was likely to get sized for a 3XL asshat.

That's when I tried to help some Utah guys who wanted to change the system so the money trail could actually be followed on the auction tags. I concluded that the Utah auction and expo tags are not going away - just too much money involved for people with the political connections. Fine, if that's how Utah wants it, I guess that's how they should do it.

The best that I could see for those Utah guys pushing for change was more transparency and more accountability for how the money is used. To date, at least to my knowledge, nothing has changed with the auction tag money. The only reason it changed a little bit with the expo/raffle tag money was that in 2015, the groups had to resubmit their expo bid when RMEF submitted a bid to give 100% of the money to UTDWR. The resubmitted bid that came in after the RFP deadline proposed giving 30% of those expo raffle proceeds to UTDWR. That is a small bit of progress, I guess.

So, to your point, a lot of folks know and a lot of folks don't know. Most folks who attend either know about it and they don't worry about it or they just don't know. I don't begrudge anyone who goes.

I've quit spending much time on the issue over the last six or seven years, as it is a waste of time for someone from another state to worry about it. If SFW/BGF does mess with Montana issues again, like they did when it came to wolves, then I will spend more time worrying about it. Until then, it's a Utah issue. It is a pox on the landscape of conservation funding, in spite of the big promotions around the dudes spending huge money for those auction tags.

It is interesting to watch the Utah folks, most who might draw two elk tags in their entire life, cheer on some guy and his outfitter as they buy multiple tags year after year. All 200 raffle tags and all 500+ auction tags are coming out of the pool these average citizens actually have a chance at in the public drawing.

The part that engages me in these Utah expo discussions is when folks come here promoting the entire circus as some great outcome, the model for how conservation should work, and usually doing so with some rather sharp comments for anyone who might feel otherwise. There is a lot more to it and I feel it is worthwhile to engage in that discussion.

I'm glad you had a good time there. I'm glad we have these discussions here on HT. It gives us all more to think about.

 

[FREAK]

This has been a very enlightening thread. What an interest place to have such a deceitful event. Seems like they’re preying on naive minds. And here I thought it must be legit seeing Cam Haynes and some of these other outdoor industry leader there. Just another Ponzi scheme disguised in the name of conservation. The moral of the story, You can’t trust a 50 year old man in sparkle jeans.

 

[MTGomer]

The Utah system is broken junk. Tons of tags taken from the public to be given at the expo and then others taken and sold to the highest bidder. I’ve never figured out why Utah residents are fine waiting 20+ years to draw a tag when the same tags are being hunted every year by the same people with a tag they bought at an auction under the guise of funding conservation.

I always get a kick out of it when I pay pennies to apply for every species I want as a NR, while residents of the state are limited on the LE species they can apply for.

 

[Gerald Martin]

This has been a very enlightening thread. What an interest place to have such a deceitful event. Seems like they’re preying on naive minds. And here I thought it must be legit seeing Cam Haynes and some of these other outdoor industry leader there. Just another Ponzi scheme disguised in the name of conservation. The moral of the story, You can’t trust a 50 year old man in sparkle jeans.

The human predisposition to leverage systems and situations towards individual advantage at the expense of resources and other shareholders is as ancient as humanity itself. The line between self interest, common interest and greed is often blurry and requires the ability for introspection, self respect and self discipline to exercise restraint when the line shades to greed.

In my observation, the outdoor industry as a whole has a high percentage of takers and a much smaller minority of givers when it comes to prioritizing the health of the wildlife resources and equity in access to those resources.
It’s purely bias on my part but when I see sparkly jeans on a fifty year old “industry leader” or similar expressed needs for adulation and self-affirmation I am pretty sure I know whether they care about the resource enough to protect it or their own interests.

 

[Elkmagnet]

The Utah system is broken junk. Tons of tags taken from the public to be given at the expo and then others taken and sold to the highest bidder. I’ve never figured out why Utah residents are fine waiting 20+ years to draw a tag when the same tags are being hunted every year by the same people with a tag they bought at an auction under the guise of funding conservation.

Fine with it? They aren't fine with it. They love it!
Utah guys are the first to defend it. We can't convince them otherwise in these threads.

Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Bambistew]

I love this question. You either except that you're scoundrels and stealing hunting opportunity or you just don't deserve to hunt? All these orgs are the same. Pretending that people pimping wildlife is somehow providing conservation of said wildlife in any meaningful way. Would we really be worse off without the orgs and pimp tags? That's anyone's guess. But i have my doubts we are better off because of them. A few million dollars out of 100 or 200M budget is really making a difference? If you say so.

I don't hunt UT and never will. Just don't care that much. You want to pimp it all out. Go for it. I say sell ALL of the tags to the highest bidder. It's for CONSERVATION!

I spent a lot of time writing letters making phone calls and talking to people, trying to keep the state of AK from doubling their gov tags. Which was pushed by big name wealthy hunter groups. They raise very little money. And sell the tags for the price of a guided hunt or less. Sheep tags have gone for $8k. We don't have any real trophy type tags that are above and beyond. Our most covered tag is a caribou tag, these days. Mostly what I see is those high dollar tags are higher dollar the easier they are to fill. One of the highest sold sheep tags was for a semi-tame ram shot within sight (1/2 mile) of the highway. A tag for in an easy to access area with "trophy" animals or a tag for a prescouted animal really brings in the "conservationists." It's not about the hunt. It's about the kill... We have so many less sheep here in AK because of the Wealthy Sheephunter Foundation. They have literally done nothing since they started back up, except make sure they get the tags to sell at their show, and piss off all the hobby sheep farmers.

 

[idahohuntr]

I love this question. You either except that you're scoundrels and stealing hunting opportunity or you just don't deserve to hunt? All these orgs are the same. Pretending that people pimping wildlife is somehow providing conservation of said wildlife in any meaningful way. Would we really be worse off without the orgs and pimp tags? That's anyone's guess. But i have my doubts we are better off because of them. A few million dollars out of 100 or 200M budget is really making a difference? If you say so.

I don't hunt UT and never will. Just don't care that much. You want to pimp it all out. Go for it. I say sell ALL of the tags to the highest bidder. It's for CONSERVATION!

I spent a lot of time writing letters making phone calls and talking to people, trying to keep the state of AK from doubling their gov tags. Which was pushed by big name wealthy hunter groups. They raise very little money. And sell the tags for the price of a guided hunt or less. Sheep tags have gone for $8k. We don't have any real trophy type tags that are above and beyond. Our most covered tag is a caribou tag, these days. Mostly what I see is those high dollar tags are higher dollar the easier they are to fill. One of the highest sold sheep tags was for a semi-tame ram shot within sight (1/2 mile) of the highway. A tag for in an easy to access area with "trophy" animals or a tag for a prescouted animal really brings in the "conservationists." It's not about the hunt. It's about the kill... We have so many less sheep here in AK because of the Wealthy Sheephunter Foundation. They have literally done nothing since they started back up, except make sure they get the tags to sell at their show, and piss off all the hobby sheep farmers.

I largely agree - but see your main point as a second (and somewhat separate) issue from the general concern over SFW/Expo:

Issue 1: What is the transparency/accountability of funds raised from a public resource (the wildlife/tags)? Are the beneficiaries getting maximum value, funds are used wisely and legitimately for a public purpose? This is where SFW falls short by keeping such a large amount from auction revenue or even the cut from the application revenue on the 200 permits.

Issue 2: Are the auction tags needed/worthwhile/make a difference? This is what you mostly focus on and I agree. While these tags can bring in big money, it usually comes at the expense of the average person's opportunity. Nobody is going to shell out big money for tags unless the area/season/method is restricted enough for the masses that it will give the buyer an above average opportunity at a trophy animal. So, then it begs the question...are we getting a meaningful difference in on the ground results by the masses sacrificing something to generate that revenue? And on that point, I tend to not believe it. Like you mention...most all these agencies have hundreds of millions in annual budgets...I can cut more waste and/or lower priority items from the budget to offset their auction revenue. Granted...725k per deer tag starts to make the job a little tougher!

 

[abqbw]

I'm a CPA. I know a few things about audits. That link doesn't prove anything if you understand how a true audit works, in this case a Yellow Book Audit under Governmental Auditing Standards. That "audit" is not even close to what an audit under GAGAS would be. I spent years looking into the UT tag programs. I stand by my statement, regardless of how you want to restate what I said.

Ask 10 CPAs to give a detailed look into this program and give their opinion. I'm confident that 10 of them would agree with me.

Well said. And beyond a good audit that has well defined and exacting standards, what would a more difficult cost-benefit analysis look like? How would you even assign a value to states’ citizens using democratically allocated big game tags instead of some rich dudes from 2,000 miles away? What is the value of western kids out hunting big game with their dads, moms, siblings, grandparents, instead of at the mall, on a screen, living in the social media pit of despair? What is the value of a western family sitting around the family table eating an elk that dad or mom or jr killed near their home instead of McDonalds? Without question my finest moments with my family have been while hunting and after. We give up so much more than just tags. We give up lifestyles, health, and happiness. I often say the value of one day with a child in the field is worth 100 days at home. What is the value of public access that is blocked protecting the pay-to-play system? What is all that worth? I believe it is priceless. There is no number.

I live in New Mexico, the state that gives up these things probably more than any other state for some cash for very few. We are much poorer for it. It breaks my heart.

 

[abqbw]

I will gladly ignore you and your heavy handed opinions. You could moderate your personal views and get more accomplished if you weren’t so sure of yourself. You are not the popular opining monument you think you are…

Like hell. BuzzH is justifiably a very well respected thinker on these issues. One reason this is so is that his thoughts and ideas are so logical and rational about these subjects that they leave people that don’t want to hear them only able to disparage the messenger and not the message. If you want to counter his ideas and opinion, have at it. But good luck.

 

[bayoublaster7527]

Like hell. BuzzH is justifiably a very well respected thinker on these issues. One reason this is so is that his thoughts and ideas are so logical and rational about these subjects that they leave people that don’t want to hear them only able to disparage the messenger and not the message. If you want to counter his ideas and opinion, have at it. But good luck.

I agree partially, sometimes folks on here don’t want to hear what other well-informed people are saying, despite the reality of it. However, I’m pretty BuzzH does plenty of disparaging on here. The usual go-to is calling folks whiners, idiots, and/or crappy hunters when they dare to disagree with him or question something. So yeah maybe the positive message gets lost in the delivery. Honestly, I love clowning on flat bills, thirsty hunting YouTube influencers, and men wearing bedazzled jeans as much as the next guy, but I was pretty shocked by how much the HT crowd jumped Shrapnel and made it personal.

 

[TheTone]

Fine with it? They aren't fine with it. They love it!
Utah guys are the first to defend it. We can't convince them otherwise in these threads.

Stockholm syndrome - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You’re right.

I assume lots of thought like this, “oh man that’s so cool that rich guy x shot another great bull with Doyle and his posse. That’s like his 20th year in a row. Talk about some wonderful conservationists. I sure hope I get to kill one someday with my 20 points.”

 

[MTGomer]

I was pretty shocked by how much the HT crowd jumped Shrapnel and made it personal.

Abqbw probably isnt familiar with the thread you’re referring to. I was a bit surprised by it too, but reading between the lines I think there’s some back story between shrap and a few of the other members that makes it a bit personal. I could be wrong though.

 

[OriginalOscar]

The count is still 2 for 2 on CPAs weighing in on this. As you state, you are not a CPA, nor is Oscar, nor is Kenny Johnson.

First, the "internal audit report." Most don't know what an internal audit is and how different an internal audit is compared to an audit a publicly traded company is subjected to or what a Governmental Agency goes through under Yellow Book standards. Most folks see "audit" and they think it is some exhaustive effort. It can be exhaustive, if done according to GAGAS or GAS, but an internal audit is not.

Go read the report - it says explicitly "this was not conducted according to Generally Accepted Governmental Auditing Standards." What was done is not even close to what the CPA world considers an outside independent audit under Generally Accepted Governmental Auditing Standards.

Now the funny part. I was going to just let this thread move along, but folks seem to be placing confidence in an "internal audit" of a program that isn't even the auction tag program.



The internal audit report does not address these auction tags Oscar refers to above. Those are called "Conservation Permits" That flimsy internal audit report only covers the 200 raffle tags, known as "Expo Permits".

I'm not making this up. Go read the report. It says "Expo Permits." It says nothing about "Conservation Permits." But, Oscar claims I'm making some unfounded aspersions and implications.

That report does not mention the 500+ auction tags, the "Conservation Permits" that get sold for the big dollars that has folks bragging about the Expo. That's the big program; the program putting a lot more money in the pockets of groups with very loose rules as to how the groups have to account for it. Only 30% of the auction tag money goes to UTDWR. The other 70% goes to mostly two groups, MDF and SFW.

I find it laugahble that @OriginalOscar asks his question in the context of auction tags, yet the auction tag program is not the program in the link he provided to give the Conservation Permit auction program some sort of credibility; almost trying to sanitize it.

I've lost much interest in what Utah does with their tags and how much prostitution they allow of their wildlife. If I was a Utah citizen, I would be demanding these programs (both the Expo Permits and Conservation Permits), the UTDWR, and the groups who receive these tag proceeds, be subjected to a Yellow Book audit under GAGAS. I'm not a Utah citizen, so that's moot.

I know a lot of good Utah folks who would like to see this stuff reeled in, but the money coming from the auction tags is what is used to keep grease on the legislative skids, so the effort of residents to implement change is nearly impossible. It becomes a self-perpetuating program; get the tags and make the auction money, then use the money to buy the influence to keep the money flowing.

I leave it up to Utah folks to decide what they want to do with their public assets, such as tags. Yet, when folks come here and want to post this kind of smoke and mirrors, I'll call BS.

Again, I stand by my statements.

Carry on.....

@Big Fin
1) Which states; listed below that donated tags for auction have credible audit and oversight?
2) What about the other conservation organizations which auctions these tags; RMEF, FNAWS, SCI, etc; have credible audit and oversight?
3) Any states/provinces who lack credible audit and oversight; will you continue to apply/purchase tags in these "prostituted" states?

Great passive, aggressive statement "I've lost much interest in what Utah does" but you're greatly interested!

Troy Rushton

Q – Will you continue to apply or purchase permits/tags in states/province which donated public property for auction? YES / NO

#1 - 2023 Outdoor Expo Auctions shows the states of; UT, NM, WY, CO, WA, CA, AZ, MT, NV, OR, TX, and province AB all donated tags.

 

[Big Fin]

@Big Fin
1) Which states; listed below that donated tags for auction have credible audit and oversight?
2) What about the other conservation organizations which auctions these tags; RMEF, FNAWS, SCI, etc; have credible audit and oversight?
3) Any states/provinces who lack credible audit and oversight; will you continue to apply/purchase tags in these "prostituted" states?

Great passive, aggressive statement "I've lost much interest in what Utah does" but you're greatly interested!

Troy Rushton

Nope, not all that interested in what Utah does, other than what rules they have for non-resident tag drawings. Call it what you want. If I was interested, I would have been the one starting the thread about Utah.

I am interested in what auction tags do/don't do for hunting and how they are an evolving trend in states beyond just Utah. I am interested in how auction tags get promoted as some savior to funding conservation, when more of the conservation work and membership in America is from the rank and file hunter who will never buy an auction tag. Auction tags seem to completely discount the work those thousands and thousands of volunteers do. That's the backbone of conservation, but you'd not know that if you read the headlines about auction tags. Utah just happens to be the promised land of auction tags and all that stems from its proliferation.

So, I take it you now agree that the oversight and audit credibility do not exist for the auction tag program and the internal audit of the expo tags is merely cosmetic.

1. Montana, Nevada, and Arizona have those protocols in effect, for sure. They have a dedicated account that holds the funds and a group must submit for reimbursement. I think Colorado has the same in place, but the Colorado guys could say for sure.

2. Of the other groups, who are a fraction of the amount the two Utah groups get in auction tags, only one can I speak on - RMEF. When I sat on the Board and chaired the Finance Committee, we had a separate Audit Committee made up of Board members who could not be on the Finance Committee. There is that level of separation and independence when it comes to the audit function. We had outside auditors come in a do a complete audit of the organization under Generally Accepted Auditing Standards. And in years when the amount of governmental funds, often in the form of pass through from the USFS and BLM for land acquisitions, exceeded the required threshold amount for a Yellow Book audit, the audit was a Yellow Book audit under Generally Accepted Governmental Auditing Standards, to include program audits of any program that received government funds.

The other two organizations you mention, I cannot vouch for. Regardless of the organization, the money should be held by the state agency, not any of the sponsoring groups or any of the three groups you specifically mention.

3. Yup, I'll continue applying in the draws. Like I said, whatever those states want to do is up to their citizens. I will deal with whatever they decide they want to do with their wildlife.

I am intrigued by how defensive you are about any critique of these programs that would suggest ways to improve them and increase the accountability or the money raised. Are you involved in the Expo or either of the groups who sponsor it? You seem to be a big promoter and cheerleader of the status quo.

I have a lot of friends at MDF. I think MDF does some really good work. I like them as an organization. That doesn't change the fact that I think accountability and transparency would help auction tag programs.

 

[OriginalOscar]

I am interested in what auction tags do/don't do for hunting and how they are an evolving trend in states beyond just Utah. I am interested in how auction tags get promoted as some savior to funding conservation, when more of the conservation work and membership in America is from the rank and file hunter who will never buy an auction tag. Auction tags seem to completely discount the work those thousands and thousands of volunteers do. That's the backbone of conservation, but you'd not know that if you read the headlines about auction tags. Utah just happens to be the promised land of auction tags and all that stems from its proliferation.

I would agree with this statement; except the implication "auction tags discount work of thousands of volunteers". The organization which you continually question and ridicule; funds projects, puts boots on ground, and collaborates with others.

As I stated earlier; amazing things happen when conservation minded organizations collaborate. Purchase of Cinnamon Creek WMA in 2021; several organizations raised $20M in 90 days to conserve 8,100 acres.

RMEF Funding Helps Conserve, Secure Access to 8,107 Acres of Utah Wildlife Habitat | Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation

Below is a news release from the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources. The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources was named as the winning bid on [...]

www.rmef.org

Round on me if you attend RMEF Mountain Festival this summer wherever it gets planned in Utah.