Enviros vs. ranchers: Fat cats win

[ELKCHSR]

I can drive as fast as I can along I-90 thru part of Id. and see not one clear-cut, matter of fact, not one thinning. I can go into the Salmon River valley south along Hwy 93, and see not one clear-cut, not even a thinning. I do understand very well what they look like, you can even go into the mountains in the same valley and see some logging, but it is done pretty well from my stand point, no over harvesting, no abuse. You can drive thru the Clear water area and see the same thing. Maybe in some areas the "Abuse" took place, but not in any of the area's that I have seen. I go into the Salmon River valley foothills and mountains every year in search of firewood for my little brother and dad. We drive miles and miles into the backcountry looking for a few dead snags to pull wood from, the places that were logged have been cleaned up well enough, and you can hardly find any firewood to collect. Of course this is not the whole state, but these areas of the state that I have mentioned are chocked full of timber and are very well managed.

 

[BuzzH]

Like Ithaca says, its obvious to all but the mentally challenged that the FS has cut at a pace well over the Non-declining even Flow objective set forth by CONGRESS and the Professional Foresters. There is absolutely no doubt what-so-ever that Plum Creek is looking to leave MT very soon. They've already sold off all their property near lakes, rivers, etc, basically any land thats worth anything. They have diversified into a realestate company, making huge profits for their stockholders, while systematically raping their land. I dont believe they have any future goals for MT and ID other than to either swap FS timber lands or out-right sell all their timber lands.

Elkchsr, my buddy has about 17 years in the field some with the FS, some with the State of MT, and some with Plum Creek. I have about the same amount of experience and we both hold degrees from the University of Montana School of Forestry in Resource Management with emphasis in Silvaculture, Range, and Fuels management. So, I'd say we're a little more qualified than most to make comments on what we see happening in MT with regard to resources.

I dont think timber lands in MT are managed that well, but hey, I'd just as soon believe some mop-shot scab fire-fighter than professionals who know what the hells going on.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-26-2003 13:38: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Like Ithaca says, its obvious to all but the mentally challenged that the FS has cut at a pace well over the Non-declining even Flow objective set forth by CONGRESS and the Professional Foresters. There is absolutely no doubt what-so-ever that Plum Creek is looking to leave MT very soon. They've already sold off all their property near lakes, rivers, etc, basically any land thats worth anything. They have diversified into a realestate company, making huge profits for their stockholders, while systematically raping their land. I dont believe they have any future goals for MT and ID other than to either swap FS timber lands or out-right sell all their timber lands. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This comment is for any one out there that has any idea what a tree looks like, just look for yourselves, don't believe me or Buzz, just look for yourselves, it doesn’t take a degree to see, or for that matter, you don’t even have to have been to school...
See any huge expanse of forest ground that has been over cut and will "Never" come back to normal..
Please I would like to know...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Elkchsr, my buddy has about 17 years in the field some with the FS, some with the State of MT, and some with Plum Creek. I have about the same amount of experience and we both hold degrees from the University of Montana School of Forestry in Resource Management with emphasis in Silvaculture, Range, and Fuels management. So, I'd say we're a little more qualified than most to make comments on what we see happening in MT with regard to resources. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What does this have to do with showing proof? If you have it, I will more than gladly go and look at it when I get a chance...But all I see from you is a bunch of babble and caring on that really doesn't do much but spout lip service.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I dont think timber lands in MT are managed that well, but hey, I'd just as soon believe some mop-shot scab fire-fighter than professionals who know what the hells going on. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This type of language only hurts "Your" case and makes you look like a complete fool, any one can carry on with this type of ignorance, no matter what type of degree they have, if you think I will stoop down to this silly level, you have no understanding of what it really takes to be an adult, especially one that wants to be taken as seriously as you do.

So prove me wrong, either tell me where you find all of this mayhem and destruction, and I will go look at it personally when I get the chance, its not a hard challenge, I may even take a camera with me, so as every one can see the terrible atrocities that exist. Just don’t forget that other pictures will be taken along the way so as to show the over all picture, not just a little tiny part of the world as I am sure that you will be wanting every one to see…You know I will, I have in the past already and will tell and show what I see… Just tell me where they are...I will be waiting...

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr just to prove a point you said, "Being as he has had only 3-4 years, he is still new to the game any way!!!"

You said that, I didnt. My buddy and I arent "new" to the resource game. I sure hope you go talk to him too.

You dont know jack diddly about timber, range, or any other resource management issues, it really shows. We've worked in the woods longer than you've been a resident of MT and you have the nerve to tell me my business. Tell you what go get yourself a degree in Forestry and 18 years worth of experience in the Natural Resources field and I'll gladly debate. Until then, its not a debate in my mind, its a one sided discussion disproving a bunch of BS that you try to spread.

Go back and point out where I said the timber wouldnt grow back. Although, I know there are areas where it may not in MT, ID, and WY, probably a lot of other places too.

What we were talking about is the FS responsibility and the over-harvest and pillaging of the land thats taken place during the last 200 years. Thats something you fail to see. I'll type this slow, because I know you dont read real fast, THE FS HAS CUT AT A RATE FAR FASTER THAN THE NON-DECLINING EVEN FLOW that was manadated by the NFMA. That would be the National Forest Management Act, another thing you dont even come close to understanding. Private timber lands in MT have been harvested at an even faster rate, so dont try to tell me that Industry has done anything but rape the woods. Because you cant and wont ever prove otherwise...its impossible. This isnt something thats happening in "my little part of the world", its happening all over the interior west. You cant harvest trees on a 30 year rotation when they take from 80-120 years to reach anything even close to harvestable. For Gods sake, take a basic course in economics and silviculture. You dont have a clue, you really dont, and that aint being mean, thats being truthful.

As far as looking for areas where over-harvest has taken place, grab up a map and head out to any plum creek land in MT. Prepare to see a moon-scape.

 

[ELKCHSR]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You dont know jack diddly about timber, range, or any other resource management issues, it really shows. We've worked in the woods longer than you've been a resident of MT and you have the nerve to tell me my business. Tell you what go get yourself a degree in Forestry and 18 years worth of experience in the Natural Resources field and I'll gladly debate. Until then, its not a debate in my mind, its a one sided discussion disproving a bunch of BS that you try to spread. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
HAHAHA!!!! Buzz, your to much fun....LMAO!!!
Let's see, I didn't realize that I had even implied the fact that I had been a resident of MT. for a long time, my expertise lies mostly in Wa. that is a "well known" fact, I don't understand where this one is going, just because you have been in your trade for what ever length of time, with a little bit of schooling, it is only your opinion that is worth any thing, that is where you are absolutely mistaken in this whole debate, any one can walk around. err, I mean work in the woods for any length of time they want. Doesn't mean they see the whole picture, not by a long shot. Just because one gets a little formal education, doesn't mean they are an expert in any thing...LMAO!!! I like you have dedicated many-many years to studying how and why things do what they do, but because I learned and studied in a different manor makes me wrong. That is about the silliest thing I have seen you come up with yet!!!
The only reason this seems like a one sided debate to you, is because you only read what you post, and not much more. You close yourself off to any thing that you don't understand, this will make you very lopsided and you will fall down...HAHAHA!!!
I only spread what I see, should I believe every thing you want me to blindly follow, or my own findings? Not a hard decision!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Go back and point out where I said the timber wouldnt grow back. Although, I know there are areas where it may not in MT, ID, and WY, probably a lot of other places too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, you are right, you never said it would never grow back, but you imply that it will take hundreds if not thousands of years to redo any damage we have done.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What we were talking about is the FS responsibility and the over-harvest and pillaging of the land thats taken place during the last 200 years. Thats something you fail to see. I'll type this slow, because I know you dont read real fast, THE FS HAS CUT AT A RATE FAR FASTER THAN THE NON-DECLINING EVEN FLOW that was manadated by the NFMA. That would be the National Forest Management Act, another thing you dont even come close to understanding. Private timber lands in MT have been harvested at an even faster rate, so dont try to tell me that Industry has done anything but rape the woods. Because you cant and wont ever prove otherwise...its impossible. This isnt something thats happening in "my little part of the world", its happening all over the interior west. You cant harvest trees on a 30 year rotation when they take from 80-120 years to reach anything even close to harvestable. For Gods sake, take a basic course in economics and silviculture. You dont have a clue, you really dont, and that aint being mean, thats being truthful.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see in this one you finally put a semi geographical area. That is better, Your last sentence is an out right lie though, I don't really honestly believe you can post any thing in this SI section that isn't mean, or very truthful...Most of it is slanted, what is your fix for the timber industries for these regions??? I have an answer; you would like to shut down every thing for what, say 80-130 years? That won't happen and it isn't even good management to even imply this type of approach, why is it also, that because I am for the harvesting of our natural resources, you lump me and a few others on this board as being the worst of the worst, this is the only thing that you have been consistent on. You come on here spouting and pouting and carrying on, we state a valid case; you come back with the same old tired stuff, and then carry on some more.
I will state this again, and I will type normal, because I don't have to type S L O W L Y to get my point across, as if any one could tell any way...LMAO!!! That’s just goofy, if you have the proof in what you continually spout on the irreparable damage caused by all of us rapers and pillagers of the natural resources of this great country, then "Show me", don't just give lip service, or you have no case!!!

 

[Michaelr]

Rock on elky

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-30-2003 22:06: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Thanks!!

 

[BigHornyRam]

I went to a small diameter wood use and cogeneration workshop here in T Falls a couple of weeks ago. It was the most interesting dicusion I have ever participated in. Lot's of positive ideas batted around. Not a lot crying and whining. Some of you should have been there, you might have learned something. This includes those with college degrees and umpteen years of experience. If you do not believe this is mostly political then you are badly mistaken. Let's cut the political B. S. and get to work on what is best for the forests. Letting them burn to the ground is no better than cutting down every last tree. And burning down forests only adds to air polution and for some of you, the dreaded global warming syndrome.

There is no doubt that the timber industry has brought a lot of the problems and scrutiny on themselves with past years sins. There is no doubt that todays "enviromentalists" are equally distructive with their agenda, zero cut and bankruptcey of the timber industry.

Buz, your arrogant and elitist attitude is a good reason why most folks anymore wouldn't give two shits for college educated opinion. If you were more balanced with you critism you would spend equal time ripping on the Ecology Center as well as Plum Creek. You negative attitude just portrays you as a sad, bitter person.

My 2 cents

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-31-2003 09:23: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Good post Paul and well said!!!

 

[BuzzH]

Paul, no elitist attitude, just stating the truth. Go for a little hike in the area between Twin Creeks NE of Missoula to the Seeley Lake area and North of HWY 200. Report back and tell me how much timber you find on Plum Creek ground.

Tell me how good their timber management is, I dare you to. They suck.

Look I'm not saying to never cut trees, I'm just saying there is a right way to do it, and that way IS NOT the way PC does it.

You know what I find funny, is all the people without college degrees are so quick to judge those that do. Yet, theres no doubt that the people who choose college, learn more. You didnt take a list of Forestry, Range, and Wildlife courses did you Paul, Elkchsr, et. al?? It surely doesnt mean your not entitled to an opinion, it also doesnt mean I'm any better...but it sure does mean that I've taken the time to learn, something a few more here should do. But, that wouldnt be as easy as just spouting off BS.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Right Buzz, and not just about these issues here in SI. One of the problems with the Internet bulletin boards is that they provide the same forum to everyone---the incredibly brilliant and well educated down to any dunce that can figure out how to post.
People who would never be in the same discussion group in real life end up debating things on the Internet. It shows, too!

You get a brain surgeon explaining the latest proven surgical technique and then some idiot who flunked out of grade school posts and says it won't work!

About all these boards are good for is preparing yourself for the real life debates. I see people post here with mind boggling misconceptions and misinformation that would stun and render me speechless in a public meeting if I weren't prepared for it!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-01-2003 23:12: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[BigHornyRam]

Buzz,

Of all the PCT properties I've hunted on, none of them resembled "moonscape". Can PCT improve their practices, yes, but your biased comments only make you look foolish. Quit your bitching and come up with positive answers. Answers from outfits like the Ecology Center do us no good either.

Do you support heli logging? How about thinning? Controlled burning for habitat improvement? Would you come walk a proposed cut if invited by the Forest Service prior to filing suit to block the cut? E. C. would not. Maybe if we could cut a few trees on our public lands, PCT would not be going balls to the wall cutting down all their trees?

For a guy that thinks he's so smart, you sure are clueless to what is happening in todays world. Maybe you ought to get a real job and find out what is going on off the campus?

Paul

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-01-2003 17:19: Message edited by: Paul C ]</font>

 

[BuzzH]

Paul C., biased?

Whats biased about my comments? Just what every state needs, a company that liquidates timber far faster than they can grow it. Then they turn around and sell any of their lands that are worth money (those lands around lakes, rivers, near highways, etc.) so they can turn a quick buck.

The government should not have to take up the slack because of PC accelerated, rape and run management plan. I wonder why every time a mill closes down in MT, the first scapegoat is always the USFS? I bet when the Stimson mill closes in Missoula (which it probably will), nobody will blame PC who is under contract to provide 100 million board feet of timber to them for ten years (1 billion total). They have accelerated that cut and the obligation will be met in about 7 years. When the timber dries up, so will the mill, but once again the USFS will be to blame, even though PC chose to accelerate their cut. The FS has not had a heavy timber harvesting program for at least ten years, and everyone knows it, nobody more than timber companies and mills.

Any company that has no thought of the future, no regard for wildlife, no regard for the local people, etc. is not going to be popular.

You want PC moonscape? Check out Belmont Peak, Sunflower Mountain, Black Mountain, Game Ridge, Burnt Fork, Vaughn Creek, etc. in the area I described above.

As far as getting away from the Campus, I've been gone from one for a long time.

I'll agree with you that the enviro's are getting in the way of proper management. But timber companies, in particular PC, arent any better.

No use arguing over it though, because there aint a damn thing either of us will do in regard to how PC manages. MT and the wildlife will just take in the shorts once again, as per usual.

 

[Michaelr]

Ithaca said
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Right Buzz, and not just about these issues here in SI. One of the problems with the Internet bulletin boards is that they provide the same forum to everyone---the incredibly brilliant and well educated down to any dunce that can figure out how to post.
People who would never be in the same discussion group in real life end up debating things on the Internet. It shows, too!

You get a brain surgeon explaining the latest proven surgical technique and then some idiot who flunked out of grade school posts and says it won't work! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT GROUP YOU THINK YOUR IN

 

[ELKCHSR]

Buzz!!
You probably already know this, but I was talking to one of the biologists from the Bitterroot about this, and no, he did not know you. He told me that Plum Creak in that region is looking to sell out it's holdings, some thing about the ground being more valuable than the timber on it, but they will get their money out of it first.
Now, this in the long run, may actually be a blessing in disguise, I know you would never see it, but the private individuals that buy the ground will probably let the trees grow from that point on and it may be full of houses, but it will never be logged again, the evil timber industry will be gone from that area...
More than likely any way..
Besides, I have never seen any ground that was totally denuded of life and it always comes back. Always with out exception, it may not look as of when you were little, but I bet the ground you rework doesn’t look the same either.
Nothing ever stay’s the same no matter how much we wish it would..
So Ithica!!
What you are saying, is that if you didn't go to collage, or didn't get a masters, you are an idiot...
I have seen a lot of college people that I wouldn't have hired to move brush, or wash my truck...

 

[Ithaca 37]

Elkchser, No. That's not what I was saying.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-01-2003 23:13: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Sorry then!!!
It sure looked that way!!

 

[BuzzH]

Elkchsr, your brilliance is really something.

Go back, and please post where I said anything about 1. things never changing 2. EVER saying timber harvesting wasnt acceptable if done correctly.

This discussion was about PC and their shitty LAND management practices. Undeniable and unargueable that their methods are in need of some serious fixing, if they're looking at anything other than a rape and run program, which by the way, you just described to a "Tee" in your last post. Like I said, go talk to my buddy, he lives in Anaconda and he'll set you straight. Ask him, he'd know more about PC's management than me, you, or anyone else on this board.

My whole point which most here fail to see is that PC is not interested in any form of long term management. They couldnt give a shit less about the people in Montana, the land in Montana, the wildlife in Montana, etc. etc. they only care about turning a quick profit, selling off their lands, and never looking back. That aint good.

Also, I realize, and have stated, that they can do that, and there isnt anything that will change it, thats reality.

However, the USFS, which operates under NFMA, is obligated to manage their land in a very different way then PC, etc. The USFS does have to take into account other resources like wildlife, watersheds, ecosystem health, managing for non-declining even flow (of timber), etc. etc. etc. To my way of thinking this is MORE correct management, way better than slick it all now for a profit, sell whats valuable and leave the residents holding the bag. But, whatever.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 02-02-2003 09:28: Message edited by: BuzzH ]</font>

 

[BigHornyRam]

Plum Creek is tickled that the enviros are blocking all the cuts on public land. Allows them to fill the void and make the most money possible for their stock holders. They are doing what all good corporations are supposed to do. Now if they could get those pesty Canadians to stop giving away their lumber they could really make some money.

CAUSE AND EFFECT: Buzz, I see you do at least get it.

Paul

 

[Washington Hunter]

Why would Plum Creek want to cut all their trees now while prices are low? Wouldn't they make more money by saving some of it and waiting until prices go up? Just wondering...