They don't have to move!!! They can stay there and struggle, but if they want something better then move! It's not hard. I did it and am doing well. If they don't have the training or education that allows them to work the job they want in the place they want that is their own damn fault. The sky's the limit in the US, you just have to find the ladder and be willing to crawl up it.
Enviros vs. ranchers: Fat cats win
- Thread starter Michaelr
- Start date
pointer,
I really do not want to sound rude, or like I am flaming you.
But you are flat out wrong!!!!!
I know alot of young guys that grew up in small town america, sons of farmers, ranchers, son of local business owners who have lost everything.
they never had a chance to further their education unless they were very very lucky and could land a scholorship. Most of these guys have families that could never afford to save to send them to school. All they have is family. They have the misfortune of ending up in the situations we are discussing through no action of their own and with a limited education. Most are intensly loyal, honest and hard working. Given a chance they usually do quite well for themselves.
It is quite disturbing to hear another young person such as yourself with this #*^@#* them attitude that you have expressed.
I would be quite interested to hear what your family situation is, Are your parents putting you through school?
Did you grow up in an area where there are no jobs inside of a hundred miles?
Walk a mile in somebody elses shoes, then you can tell me how bad their feet hurt...
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-21-2003 12:52: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>
I really do not want to sound rude, or like I am flaming you.
But you are flat out wrong!!!!!
I know alot of young guys that grew up in small town america, sons of farmers, ranchers, son of local business owners who have lost everything.
they never had a chance to further their education unless they were very very lucky and could land a scholorship. Most of these guys have families that could never afford to save to send them to school. All they have is family. They have the misfortune of ending up in the situations we are discussing through no action of their own and with a limited education. Most are intensly loyal, honest and hard working. Given a chance they usually do quite well for themselves.
It is quite disturbing to hear another young person such as yourself with this #*^@#* them attitude that you have expressed.
I would be quite interested to hear what your family situation is, Are your parents putting you through school?
Did you grow up in an area where there are no jobs inside of a hundred miles?
Walk a mile in somebody elses shoes, then you can tell me how bad their feet hurt...
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-21-2003 12:52: Message edited by: michaelr ]</font>
dgibson
New member
Don't know about 1_p, but I worked two jobs all through school, and I'm still paying for my tuition. Mom and Dad weren't able to contribute a dime. There are lots of others who do or have done the same. Sure, there are some who really can't go to school for whatever reason, and there are some who are well off and have nothing better to do. But there are a LOT of people who can't afford to go to school and do it anyway, and there are also a LOT of people who are just too lazy to try. So why don't we stop pigeonholing people and making baseless assumptions and get back to the facts?
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-21-2003 13:51: Message edited by: dgibson ]</font>
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-21-2003 13:51: Message edited by: dgibson ]</font>
Mike- My parents did help to pay for my undergraduate education. This was due in large part to them not letting me have a job, even in the summer, until I graduated high school. But, the brunt of the payment was taken up by me mostly in the way of loans, which like DG I'll be paying off for a long time. Right now, my wife and I our paying for both our tuitions, she is considered a non-resident even though she lived in the state for more than a year before starting school. So, that is my situation. Pick at it all you want. I'm not a trust fund baby, but there are those who are much worse off than me. Anyone can go to school if they so choose. The poorer you are the more the gov. will help you go. If you can't get the grants or scholarships there are always loans, just like for vehichles. Anyone who is wants to can go to college. Call my attitude what you will. Blaming someone else for your (or in this case their) lot in life will get you nowhere. But, they can change that just like you and me. I moved half-way across the country to pursue my goals, they can do the same. If they aren't willing to pay the price to meet their goals, it's only their fault if they don't reach them. I'm not saying #*^@#* them, I'm saying that I BELIEVE in them enough that they can make the situation better IF THEY WANT TO! I guess I'm just too young to not believe that life is what you make it and that goes for me or anyone else in this country.
Sorry for the double post, but Mike's statement really touched a nerve with me. College is not only for the 'upper crust' or whatever he was referring to. Mike, didn't you say that you served in the Military (thanks BTW)? Then you should know that is one way even a poor kid from Road Apple, MT could afford college. As you know I live in UT and most of the undergrads I know are LDS. They've been on their missions and are now going to school, working part time during school, full time during the summer to pay for their education. Many of these same students have one if not more children at home. One in particular has 4 boys aged 6,5,4, and 3! They are paying their own way. I just don't buy the I'm too poor to go to college bit anymore, as it's a bogus statement.
Heres another point to ponder. Living in high urban sprawl sucks, I have done it and am doing it to a point right now, there used to be very good jobs around these areas that one could live the country life, and still make a decent living. But when it takes two years to figure out if it is ok to cut a patch of trees that are in or past their prime, there is some thing very wrong with this. It isn't the fact that a few specialists look at is or what not, it gets lost in the "Paper" shuffle that to many college educated "People" have created by what ever means to justify their existance. This is also the way of the mining problems that exist also. When other factors, such as energy prices go thru the roof, the paper people have so much of the profit sucked out of these industries, that there is no where to go but to shut down the shop and send every one home. This is, I believe, the very thing the enviro-wackos were after in the first place. Flood the working man with so much paper trail red tape crap, that he looses interest, or spends way to much time with the peculiers of one job, that there is no money left in it any more, and who wants to work for free...
dgibson
New member
Gee, Elkchsr, all you had to do was throw in something about "The Man bringing us down" and your post would have been perfect.
You're right, all college-educated people are money-grabbing, non-working, red tape-loving bureaucrats whose entire existence revolves around raping the poor working man and taking his rights away. In fact, they are actually in cahoots with the Communists and are secretly trying to drive the nation into financial chaos so that the Red Bear can rise again and overthrow the capitalist infidels.
You want to talk about how bad "the working man" has it? Take a look at the conditions "the working man" had at the start of the 20th century. Who improved those conditions? It wasn't "the working man!" But I guess THOSE regulations and red tape are OK, because they help "the working man." Ditto to the rules and regulations imposed by the union labor system. So really, it's OK to have extra expense and bureaucracy as long as it goes to serve the interests of "the working man." Bah! Finger pointing will get you nowhere.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-22-2003 07:39: Message edited by: dgibson ]</font>
You want to talk about how bad "the working man" has it? Take a look at the conditions "the working man" had at the start of the 20th century. Who improved those conditions? It wasn't "the working man!" But I guess THOSE regulations and red tape are OK, because they help "the working man." Ditto to the rules and regulations imposed by the union labor system. So really, it's OK to have extra expense and bureaucracy as long as it goes to serve the interests of "the working man." Bah! Finger pointing will get you nowhere.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-22-2003 07:39: Message edited by: dgibson ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
Elkchser, Do you have to do a lot of paper work in your fire fighting business? Does it actually take away from the times you're available to fight fires? If you do have a lot of paper work, what about it is unreasonable?
Muledeer4me
New member
Ithaca ,before elkchsr answers your questions maybe it's time we learn about you.
I asked a few simple question ,NO answer,only more trying to skirt it and chance the subject.
Wife? Kid's? house to sell before you picked and found another job?
dgibson,I dont believe elkcher is trying to imply what you got out of it.
There does happen to be law suite after law suite brought on by the environmentalist and a host of others that keep some of the people out of work.
It a fact ,there have been org. posted on here where these people say that is just how they are going to break towns,family's.
No one is saying going to school isnt good.
But to say it's easy to pack up and move and have no compassion for others is pretty sick.
We all understand change is hard and people need to be responsble for thereself,but when you have seen the effects that some of thes org. have had on real people iit isnt as easy as (how the hell cares)we arent talking about people that are lazy and dont want to work.
Im the biggest hard ass on people when it comes to them not taking care of buisness ,and having them stand on there own,but this goes behond that.
It's when the invironmentlest /rancher hater/anti-meat groups go out of there way to rune people ,thats where we are drawing the line.
Its being done by Jon Marvel ,he even says thats his methiod.
Ithaca's own links point us to other groups that have that same underhanded position.
Soooooo Ithaca instead of nuking this post ,lets hear how you did it,how you wife & kids handled the move's,was the town you came from dead? Did you own a house you had to sell or just let the bank take it?
Was the town in good enough shape that selling a house was still an option?
Lets hear it from someone that did it.
I asked a few simple question ,NO answer,only more trying to skirt it and chance the subject.
Wife? Kid's? house to sell before you picked and found another job?
dgibson,I dont believe elkcher is trying to imply what you got out of it.
There does happen to be law suite after law suite brought on by the environmentalist and a host of others that keep some of the people out of work.
It a fact ,there have been org. posted on here where these people say that is just how they are going to break towns,family's.
No one is saying going to school isnt good.
But to say it's easy to pack up and move and have no compassion for others is pretty sick.
We all understand change is hard and people need to be responsble for thereself,but when you have seen the effects that some of thes org. have had on real people iit isnt as easy as (how the hell cares)we arent talking about people that are lazy and dont want to work.
Im the biggest hard ass on people when it comes to them not taking care of buisness ,and having them stand on there own,but this goes behond that.
It's when the invironmentlest /rancher hater/anti-meat groups go out of there way to rune people ,thats where we are drawing the line.
Its being done by Jon Marvel ,he even says thats his methiod.
Ithaca's own links point us to other groups that have that same underhanded position.
Soooooo Ithaca instead of nuking this post ,lets hear how you did it,how you wife & kids handled the move's,was the town you came from dead? Did you own a house you had to sell or just let the bank take it?
Was the town in good enough shape that selling a house was still an option?
Lets hear it from someone that did it.
I moved across the country with for a position as a research assistant for a yearly salary of $14,000/yr. My wife got a job through phone interviews only. No, we didn't own a house or have kids. Moving isn't easy, but it's far from impossible.
I agree that the tactics of breaking towns and families finacially is wrong. But, nowhere have you stated or given consideration that those industries in question brought about the situations they are now facing by their past practices or even inaction.
I have never seen anywhere the garantee of freedom to work the job of your choice in the location of your choice. The Bill of Rights does give the right to the pusuit of happiness.
Granted, I'm young and there are plenty of lessons that life hasn't taught me yet. But, one it has is that blaming others for your lot in life will get you nowhere. I used to blame coaches for me not getting what I felt was enough playing time. Teachers for the 'unjust' grades I was getting. Affirmative action for preventing me from getting the jobs I wanted. Blaming these people did nothing for my situation. What did help change my situation was working harder, acquiring the skills/knowledge necessary, and just plain changing what I have control of that that is ME! It takes much more effort to do that than to blame others, which is why people often opt for the latter.
I agree that the tactics of breaking towns and families finacially is wrong. But, nowhere have you stated or given consideration that those industries in question brought about the situations they are now facing by their past practices or even inaction.
I have never seen anywhere the garantee of freedom to work the job of your choice in the location of your choice. The Bill of Rights does give the right to the pusuit of happiness.
Granted, I'm young and there are plenty of lessons that life hasn't taught me yet. But, one it has is that blaming others for your lot in life will get you nowhere. I used to blame coaches for me not getting what I felt was enough playing time. Teachers for the 'unjust' grades I was getting. Affirmative action for preventing me from getting the jobs I wanted. Blaming these people did nothing for my situation. What did help change my situation was working harder, acquiring the skills/knowledge necessary, and just plain changing what I have control of that that is ME! It takes much more effort to do that than to blame others, which is why people often opt for the latter.
Ithaca 37
New member
I'm not going to answer any questions for MD4M until she answers about a hundred of the ones I've asked her about supplying the quotes she's falsely accused me of making so many times. She can take her questions and shove them.
Anyone in this country is free to pack up and move whenever they want to pursue happiness somewhere else. People do it everyday. Some of them are so broke they put all their belongings in a paper bag and climb on the bus.
Blaming the gummint for anyone's lack of success has been going on for over two hundred years.
Now we have people blaming "the environmentalists" too!
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-22-2003 20:03: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Anyone in this country is free to pack up and move whenever they want to pursue happiness somewhere else. People do it everyday. Some of them are so broke they put all their belongings in a paper bag and climb on the bus.
Blaming the gummint for anyone's lack of success has been going on for over two hundred years.
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-22-2003 20:03: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>
Thanks MD!!!
Nope!!!
Don't do much paper work in the fire fighting industry, but I didn't realize that I had named that one....Just the extraction industries!!!
I just looked very carefully at my post and nope..
Didn't see a thing even remotely referring to that trade, nor did I paint a general brush over all college educated people.
Let's see..I be one!!!
Nope, just looked at it again...No mention of that at all..
I had implied the fact that there are a lot of bureaucrats that have sat down and figure way's to suck the profits by any means from the business of the extraction industries that its to the point that the ones that are hustling the work and putting up the time and money to do the jobs in the first place, are working for free very little even in some cases paying to be there in the end on the chance that they will be able to get a better contract later on. I have been in and around these extraction type jobs for years, and know exactly what the game is all about. I have been burned big time because the office pukes couldn't get their sh!t together enough or added stuff that wasn't supposed to be added, but because they had the power to play the game better, abused it. It is not just me that this happens to, it happens every day, the only recourse I have is to put a hex on the overeducated college pukes that pull this and hope it sticks..They have made themselves impervious to reprisals and go on to do it again to the next working stiff that wants to try and play the game...
So in ending, "Don't" generalize on my posts in this manor and make it sound as if all the people going to collage and getting into the paper shuffle world are just doing their jobs, I personally know better. They actually if the truth be known, produce "Nothing" and are in reality a drain on society if one happens to look at the truth for what it really is!!!!
If you like, I can generalize on what I think of people that go to collage and paint a wide brush adding you fellas to it also, that is no different than you painting a wide swath on those topics on these threads. Should I go on, I can if you like...
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-23-2003 07:34: Message edited by: ELKCHSR ]</font>
Nope!!!
Don't do much paper work in the fire fighting industry, but I didn't realize that I had named that one....Just the extraction industries!!!
I just looked very carefully at my post and nope..
Didn't see a thing even remotely referring to that trade, nor did I paint a general brush over all college educated people.
Let's see..I be one!!!
Nope, just looked at it again...No mention of that at all..
I had implied the fact that there are a lot of bureaucrats that have sat down and figure way's to suck the profits by any means from the business of the extraction industries that its to the point that the ones that are hustling the work and putting up the time and money to do the jobs in the first place, are working for free very little even in some cases paying to be there in the end on the chance that they will be able to get a better contract later on. I have been in and around these extraction type jobs for years, and know exactly what the game is all about. I have been burned big time because the office pukes couldn't get their sh!t together enough or added stuff that wasn't supposed to be added, but because they had the power to play the game better, abused it. It is not just me that this happens to, it happens every day, the only recourse I have is to put a hex on the overeducated college pukes that pull this and hope it sticks..They have made themselves impervious to reprisals and go on to do it again to the next working stiff that wants to try and play the game...
So in ending, "Don't" generalize on my posts in this manor and make it sound as if all the people going to collage and getting into the paper shuffle world are just doing their jobs, I personally know better. They actually if the truth be known, produce "Nothing" and are in reality a drain on society if one happens to look at the truth for what it really is!!!!
If you like, I can generalize on what I think of people that go to collage and paint a wide brush adding you fellas to it also, that is no different than you painting a wide swath on those topics on these threads. Should I go on, I can if you like...
<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-23-2003 07:34: Message edited by: ELKCHSR ]</font>
Ithaca 37
New member
Elkchser, Sorry, I didn't realize you were only referring to extraction industries. I think past abuses in that industry have lead to all their regulation.
Yes!!
But not to the extent it is now..
It is "WAY WAY" over regulated!!!
To the point where our country will be hurting for years because of some people ovezelous feelings and abuses on the other end..The worst thing is that all of these little idiots feel very justified because they are doing this...They just can't sit back and take a look at the whole picture, only their own little path, and there are thousands and thousands of these little people that just keep adding to and never taking away some of the crap they help to get enacted...Enough is enough!!!
But not to the extent it is now..
It is "WAY WAY" over regulated!!!
To the point where our country will be hurting for years because of some people ovezelous feelings and abuses on the other end..The worst thing is that all of these little idiots feel very justified because they are doing this...They just can't sit back and take a look at the whole picture, only their own little path, and there are thousands and thousands of these little people that just keep adding to and never taking away some of the crap they help to get enacted...Enough is enough!!!
BuzzH
Well-known member
Elkchsr, how is the country hurting from over-regulation of extraction industries? Last time I checked not too many Americans were waiting in line for asswipe, paper to write on, petroleum products, electricity, gold, silver, etc. etc. etc.
If over-regulation was happening, and causing the demise of the extraction industry, I'd guess that these products would become scarce and in a hurry. But, beings how I'm just an educated idiot college grad, who put myself through school the old-fashioned way, what the hell would I know.
If over-regulation was happening, and causing the demise of the extraction industry, I'd guess that these products would become scarce and in a hurry. But, beings how I'm just an educated idiot college grad, who put myself through school the old-fashioned way, what the hell would I know.
I had to wait in line for TP at a chili eating contest once.
If these 'little idiots' are causing so much trouble how come those who oppose them aren't positioning themselves to fix the situation? These people 'produce' nothing?
If these 'little idiots' are causing so much trouble how come those who oppose them aren't positioning themselves to fix the situation? These people 'produce' nothing?
Buzz!!!
Just to start, this whole region is shut down pretty much totally, mining and timber harvest. Talked to some loggers during hunting season, say's it takes over two years now to take out a patch of pecker pole lodge pole, that any one that has half a wit, can see that it needs cleared, wasn’t by any water, not even close, no hillside to deal with, just flat. One of the guy's down in Salmon, Id. that works for one of the mines say's that the environmental controls that he sees put in, are way to much overkill. It does get a few more office pukes to justify their existence though I suppose you don't think the gov. pay's for all of the environmental controls do you. The raw products of this country are only worth so much, and if you get to much paper involved, and too much time to get the stuff out, it eats into any profits that one might make. Oh, but I forgot, you don't believe that any one in the U.S. should be able to make a profit from raw products....
Our wealth has to come from something and some where, and it isn't consultants!!!
Just to start, this whole region is shut down pretty much totally, mining and timber harvest. Talked to some loggers during hunting season, say's it takes over two years now to take out a patch of pecker pole lodge pole, that any one that has half a wit, can see that it needs cleared, wasn’t by any water, not even close, no hillside to deal with, just flat. One of the guy's down in Salmon, Id. that works for one of the mines say's that the environmental controls that he sees put in, are way to much overkill. It does get a few more office pukes to justify their existence though I suppose you don't think the gov. pay's for all of the environmental controls do you. The raw products of this country are only worth so much, and if you get to much paper involved, and too much time to get the stuff out, it eats into any profits that one might make. Oh, but I forgot, you don't believe that any one in the U.S. should be able to make a profit from raw products....
Our wealth has to come from something and some where, and it isn't consultants!!!
BuzzH
Well-known member
Elkchsr, it would seem to me that your buddies are still working. There's plenty of loggers, miners, etc. still making plenty of profit. So you have to do a little more paper work or jump through a few more hoops. Big freaking deal.
Your bitch seems to be that logging and mining should be done as it was 30 years ago. Bullshit, thats a big steaming load of it too. If a company cannot adapt to regulations set by the citizens of the country too bad. For those companies that comply and play the game, theres still plenty of profit, or they wouldnt be in business.
Your argument is totally old-school and "why cant things stay the same" type attitude. It doesnt fly anymore, and rightfully so.
Your bitch seems to be that logging and mining should be done as it was 30 years ago. Bullshit, thats a big steaming load of it too. If a company cannot adapt to regulations set by the citizens of the country too bad. For those companies that comply and play the game, theres still plenty of profit, or they wouldnt be in business.
Your argument is totally old-school and "why cant things stay the same" type attitude. It doesnt fly anymore, and rightfully so.
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