Enviros vs. ranchers: Fat cats win

[Muledeer4me]

Ithaca,1Pointer ,if you didnt take yourselfs so serious you would be funny.
They dont bring much into the economy? LOL
OH heavens no.

Just who do you think made it so many of these people now have to travel out of there towns to find work ?
The radical invironemtalist?The tree hugger? The liberal that are only as liberal as where there wants stop?
We have many towns here in idaho that have all but died because of the nut-cases,and WOW they still havent been able to pick up whats been lost by flipping burgers for the bunny huggers that want to come look at the pretty stuff.LOL
It sound so good on paper,but what happens to the towns where they do make it into a attraction?
You really believe we can all get by going into the recreation & tourism?
That well be fun ,to be sourrounded by all these tourist LOL Where we once had real working people.
Try finding a place to live then .Check out sun valley,Im all for a mix,but to say these people dont bring value

Mike ----I agree on your last post it sucks when they close off access.
Where its found to be illegal I think they should be fined BIG TIME.
We have come across that around here.
Steve challanged some guy one year,he came up and said we were trespassing ,Steve told him we werent -they got into a argument ,it turns out the guy had no clue as to where his boundry was and what the regulations said about posting private land,after Steve told him to go call the law or shut the hell up,the guy backed down and admitted he wasnt up on all of that stuff LOL
He ended up saying he was sorry & helpped a friend of ours that had an his elk down.
I was ready to leave as soon as he said we were on private land cause im a big chicken shit when it comes to confrontation in the field or the thought of being illegal LOL Steve knew we were fine and was pissed that some of these guys try this stuff.

 

[1_pointer]

I never said they bring in no value. I've seen towns in IN lose the local coal mines. Are they still there? Yep. People just found other work. Take some other small towns, especially those near good hunting areas. Which do you think bring in more money ranchers or the people coming to hunt? That is my point. If the hunting and fishing is better people will be traveling into these small towns, buying gas, eating at the resturaunts, staying at the motel, etc. Many of them will want or need guides. So, no it's not all a loss.

 

[Michaelr]

pointer,

You obviously have never spent much time in small town U.S.A., I just love how you rationalize how they should live. What their options are. Why dont you stop into one of the little diners in say salmon, or challis, lima montana, and say the things there that you are saying here.

You are starting to really seem like a yuppie, granola munching, tree hugging, yule gibbons wanna be, ithaca clone, colledge kid!

 

[Lostagain]

1for an example.... I pay state, county, school property taxes on ALL my stuff. Land, machinery, cattle, trucks etcetc. Then I pay state and fed income tax on my profits.
If I sell my place or easements to my place to TNC, RMEF,etcetc.... then I don't pay property tax anymore and neither do they. SO where is the schools, county, state going to make up this shortfall? If the RMEF, TNC are exempt then they don't pay ANY taxes at all.... who is going to make up the difference? YOU and IT? Doubt it.
Everytime I buy something for my place, I can write it off as an expense but I still need to pay property tax on the assets. I also helped someone else to stay in business and they contributed to the schools, county, state.... But if the govt or a nonprofit has that same place do they to the same extent? NO.
The state DoCommerce says every dollar you spend in your own town rolls over 7 times. So once the govt has it its gone until they decide to send some of it back.
Head out to eastern MT where one or two corps and the govt have all the land and you'll see the towns are gone.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Sure, there are examples of small communities all over the West that haven't survived. I guess what some of you want is a guarentee that anyone can live anywhere they want and be guarenteed a living.
Well, I've been thru that scenario a couple of times and you might as well grow up and face reality. Don't expect to be gaurenteed a living. Some of you sound like a bunch of socialists!

 

[Lostagain]

LMAO

I think IT has fallen on his head.
You and MARV are the one that wants govt control over everything and to get the private ranchers off the land. And you call us socialists.
You are something else.... you are a welfare farmer and an ATV owner but you sure throw a fit about anyone else wanting to do what you already are doing.

 

[1_pointer]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You obviously have never spent much time in small town U.S.A., <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was born and raised in a town with a population under 1500 with no stop lights within city limits. Granted there are smaller towns, but that's still pretty small.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> You are starting to really seem like a yuppie, granola munching, tree hugging, yule gibbons wanna be, ithaca clone, colledge kid! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks!

Lost- The point I was trying to make is that people can live where they want. If they choose to live in a place that doesn't offer them the jobs they want that is their fault. It's true, the property taxes help the locals. I never said people couldn't live in the small towns or even have ranches. But, if they depend on public land for their income I don't think they should cry when management changes have to be made that would benefit the land. As it's not theirs by definition.

There are other 'industries' they could be working in also, that is still a fact. Mining is nearly non-existant in Moab, UT and the town is probably richer now than during the uranium boom. Why? Tourism. Tourism generates more money for the state of WY than mining and ALL agriculture combined. Same as in UT. So you tell me, which is the 'cash cow'?

So, if non-locals spend the money in these towns does that mean income from outside will then be rolled over 7 times? Does all the money spent in an area have to be generated there? My dad pays property taxes in our county but works in another.

 

[Lostagain]

1P=== You and me can speak in generals to each other cause we each know the other is trying. I don't know about WY having more income from tourism than Mining---- they pretty much run everything on coal and gas taxes. .... kinda like AK with their oil.
Yes many places could survive on service jobs for the tourists, but.
I do agree that public ground shouldn't be exploited just for a few bucks, but also by that thinking you tend to be saying everyone should be living in apartment buildings. There ought to be a way we can use the land sensibly and not rely on imports.

 

[1_pointer]

Lost-
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> There ought to be a way we can use the land sensibly and not rely on imports. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's what I'm working for. The info about the revenues came from Dennis Knight's book: Mountains and Plains: The Ecology of Wyoming Landscapes

 

[Michaelr]

what about the young people who were born and raised in a small town like lima montana, population less than 700, there used to be jobs in the timber, railroad, cattle, and then service jobs, local hardware store, service station, Bars
ect, ect.
now that the timber industry around there has been shut down the railroad pulled out, the hardware store had to close, and the bar is about done. all because the timber industry went to hell.
do you or ithaca have any compassion for those young people that will have to move hundreds of miles away from there families to make a living? or do you think that their parents who have worked a lifetime building theor homes should up and sale and move to the city?
and if you do think they should sale to whom do you suggest they sale out to?
Marvel? a developer who will either build a tourist trap, a fenced hunting ranch, subdivision, or some other venture that will close us out. do you think they will be able to sale for even close to what their property was once worth? to what they have invested over generations?

 

[Nut]

It is that way even in bigger and smaller cities in the east. The jobs are moving to Mexico via NAFTA for cheap labor. Manufacturing companies are moving which affects the smaller supply shops which in turn cuts employees or closes because of lack of business. Do you have compassion for these workers? I dont think so. So they move hundreds of miles to go where the jobs are. Doesnt matter what location you are at.

It is tough all over.

 

[Ithaca 37]

mike, just because somebody is raised in a small town doesn't mean they're guaranteed they'll be able to make a living there for the rest of their life.

And just because somebody owns a house there doesn't mean they're guaranteed they'll be able to sell it to somebody they want to someday. Or even that they'll be able to sell it at all.

You have some real strange ideas about what rights are guaranteed in the US Constitution!

There's no guarantee that every small town is going to survive, either.

Grow up and get used to reality.

It's unfortunate that everyone can't have the exact job they want wherever they want it.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-20-2003 18:38: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[Michaelr]

the point is in this country it shouldn't be like that.

ithaca I understand the constitution just fine, I spent a good portion of my life serving in its defence.
it is because of jerks like you that things are the way they are.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Oh! It shouldn't be like that in this country! Sounds like you want some kind of socialist guarantee!

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-20-2003 18:36: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

If some of the rules and regs that go into trying to be a self sufficient entrepreneur weren't "Forced" down their throats so much by the gov. and the little peons that help to dictate rules and laws, people could still live and survive quite well out in the rural settings that they prefer to live in. The little dictators that help to enforce all of the rules and regulations, (getting to be way to much) are nothing more than a drag on society, they create no wealth, only suck from the system. It would behoove them to do every thing possible to help these smaller individuals trying to make it in the outskirts of the large cities instead of hindering their every movement. The gov. needs to get out of our lives and let us prosper on our own, instead of trying to drag every one down that wants to try and make it with out big brothers help!!!

 

[1_pointer]

The only thing constant in life is change. If you can't or aren't willing to change then you're gonna have a tough time. There is not reason the young people couldn't stay there. BUT, they may have to start up an 'industry' for themselves. Yes, I do feel for them. That's no different than my father in law who gets laid off in March because the mine he's worked out for over 30yrs. is going tits up. It sucks, but life's not fair and you can make you want of it. That town is not any different than many small towns. This country is becoming more urbanized and more of a focus is on service industries.

 

[Ithaca 37]

I often see people start businesses in small towns, large ones and cities. Some businesses are more regulated than others, usually because of past abuses. Anyone who doesn't want to be in a closely regulated business has the option of getting into a different kind. Some people might have to change location to do it. I've changed careers completely three times and moved to a different state twice in pursuit of a different opportunity. I know many others who have done so. I know all about how hard it is, but the best thing is to accept change and do whatever is necessary to deal with it.

Anyone who sits around whining because changes happen and life didn't turn out as they'd hoped is just wasting time. Most of the time we create our own opportunities.

I guess the thing that turns me off most about some public land ranchers is that they expect to be subsidized and protected from change so they can have the lifestyle they want.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-20-2003 22:38: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]</font>

 

[ELKCHSR]

Service industries are great, cept one thing; you already have to have money in an area from some source to make them work. Tourism does put a lot of money into an area, but not enough to keep an area alive, unless you’re around somewhere there is a legitimate draw. Not really many places in the U.S. that are like that. One of my used to be neighbors (He moved) believes in his heart that the agriculture can all but be shut down in Montana and the whole state run on tourist dollars...There just isn't enough $$$ brought in by outside sources to make this in reality feasible. So, the only way that enough can come in is thru all the industries that are already here doing what they can to keep things rolling. Here is one example, the butcher I am remodeling for right now, makes a great income from hunters bringing in wild game, but that only lasts for the season, there would be no way he could keep his doors open on that alone and would have to close for the rest of the year. I have been thru towns that all but close all their doors in the off-season when the tourists are not moving; this makes for a very slow economy for most of the year. Then also, what happens when the tourist trade has a major set back, as has happened and is going on right now when the economy slows. These places can't stay in business. You have to have a great variety of things in an area to keep it vibrant and alive, or it can't just keep going on. Tyler, imagine if you will, only getting checks coming in for four to six months a year and then nothing for the rest of the time. I mean really imagine what would happen to your household...Where would you go and what would you do!!!. This last question wasn't meant in any way to be malicious, just asking for you to think of this for a moment if you would...Thanks.

 

[Lostagain]

Elk=== Mt is just one big tourist destination..... You can't do anything here that doesn't cater to that. If you do you will not last long, with the exception being fire industry. We saw that years ago when we were hauling logs from MT to a mill in WA. Changed all the skidders and trucks to tankers, can't use the timber but watch it burn. The socialists want to see their forests burn rather than use it to build.
Imports from less regulated countries they will buy as long as their own forests burn instead. Doesn't make much sense to me, but it does to IT, he's got his ATV and welfare farm.

 

[Muledeer4me]

Very good posts.
Ithaca how many people were in your family at the time of your moves?
Wife? Kid's? Did you own a house?

1Pointer,your right almost anyone can start a buisness or move and it sounds so easy.
But you aren
t thinking about this like someone that has really been through it.
Business rely on income to survive ,so to say some kid can go out and think of a new buisness to start ,well where do you think his customers will come from? to start a business you have to find the need fill a nitch ,some of these towns don't have that,and like eklchsr said hunting & fishing doesnt cut it in alot of them because it so seasonal.

I dont think you have really seen a dead & dying town.
They can move to the bigger city's? Look at Nuts post even the big town are not safe from that.
Because of all the nonsense regulations ,red tape & bull shit that some of these people support this country is being run into the ground.
Its cheaper to go over sea's.
There has to be a balance ,one I havent seen come from anything Ithaca posts.
It not as easy as you think for most people to to pack up and move to another state to find work.
You did ,I have done it many time.
Steve and I used to pack the truck with our stuff,the kid,the dog and be gone.
In doing that we have landed in some pretty hard times so I had the chance to see it working from both end's.
I have compassion for anyone that is faced with that choice.

Change isnt what most are fighting over,its the chance thats being forced on them by the very liberal radical new age thinker that wants to regulate everything to death to the point of running out buisness in our country.
Its the people like Ithaca and Jon Marvel that have a one track mind-----that is to have it there way at all cost and damn anyone that gets in there way.
How does another human get to that point in there life that they are so hard hearted and filled with such hate for other people?
I know I never want to get there!!!!