Elk population article in Billings paper

[300stw]

reading the elk population article in the paper this morning, access vs elk populations,
one comment stood out,
"Ranch youngsters may make contacts with business folk who could one day provide apprenticeships. There’s also the possibility of reduced dental costs by allowing dentists to hunt and Christmas gifts given as a thank you from hunters,"

I suppose us lower income type guys will never get very far gaining access to private elk,,,,,

from a landowner stand point I can see it would get tiring dealing with hunters for 6 months , but if I ever had a elk problem, I bet a kid could develop a HOT button app, when the elk were available , hit the app button, the pre authorized hunters show up, make a mess of the elk and leave,,,,
any high school or college kids wanna build an APP,,,,

other than that how is there ever gonna be a way to to work over elk herds that are harbored during shooting hours, do the landowners that are harboring , also want paid for damages by wildlife? or is it the surrounding guys that want the damages, that also are letting some access,

it seems every system that has been tossed around to get more, better access, takes more money, and more people, to monitor and authorize payments, it seems all workers that may be able to do this are all overworked now,,,,

 

[Big Fin]

.......

other than that how is there ever gonna be a way to to work over elk herds that are harbored during shooting hours, do the landowners that are harboring , also want paid for damages by wildlife? or is it the surrounding guys that want the damages, that also are letting some access,

it seems every system that has been tossed around to get more, better access, takes more money, and more people, to monitor and authorize payments, it seems all workers that may be able to do this are all overworked now,,,,

I hear the term harboring a lot, in Montana. I've never really asked anyone who uses it, "What is harboring" in the context of elk on private lands? Not asking you specifically, rather rhetorically.

A big issue we have in Montana is that we hunt the hell out of elk for so long, that they are going to seek refuge from hunting pressure. Is the fact that elk seek a less dangerous locale a function of harboring by the landowner? I my mind, the answer is no.

Another big issue is that Congress continues to cut budgets that would help improve feed/range conditions on public land. Add that to the huge amount of fire suppression and litigators stopping a lot of active forest management, and the quality of habitat on public land is not near what it is on actively managed private lands. Is the fact that elk seek better feed conditions on private lands a function of harboring by landowners? Again, in my mind, the answer is no.

I doubt we have a baseline to go from that would measure the level of elk accumulation on private lands, but I suspect if we had that info and we could compare it to season lengths, we would find a lot more elk running to private land sanctuaries since we extended seasons both before and after the general season.

I suspect elk accumulation on private lands is also a function of a bigger issue we have no control over - the new age landowner who buys his Montana ranch as a weekend retreat and has a very high tolerance for wildlife on his property and zero tolerance for hunters on his property. End result is that elk accumulate on his ranch, no matter how much access his neighbors provide to hunters. After season, the elk leave his place and go hammer his neighbor who has been allowing access for years.

The article link is here - https://billingsgazette.com/outdoor...cle_db384a5f-fb0b-5455-a529-e81062a3c6a1.html

I am all in favor of doing whatever can be done to help the impacted landowners who are overrun with wildlife and who are working to try provide access. But, as explained by one of the ranchers in the article, even though they allow hunting the elk head to a neighbor's place before daylight where they are free from hunting pressure. Elk occupy large landscapes, daily and seasonally. Landowners across the entire landscape have to be on board with the management effort or it's not going to work well.

I know landowners don't like to be told what to do nor do they like to tell their neighbors what to do. Makes complete sense; exactly how all of us feel. Yet, a common theme in the article is that one landowner is impacted heavily and doing all they can to help solve the problem only to have a neighbor(s) that don't share the same tolerance on wildlife or hunting. That is a problem among neighbors, not due to hunters or FWP.

Imagine if FWP said something as crazy as "We're going to come on your land and shoot elk, as they are causing problems with your neighbors." I, and most others, would have a fit over the violation that would be to property rights. Given that is not an option, there is no real solution available to FWP, other than do what they can to skirt around the edges with programs that make a very small dent in the problem and in some instances might amplify the problem.

Montana needs to start focusing on what can be done and what cannot. Some of this needs to be sorted out between the neighbors, rather than asking FWP to solve the problem. FWP cannot solve a societal trend of working ranches having no kids to take over whereby the ranch ends up sold to a Wall Street type who has very high elk tolerance. FWP cannot force themselves or hunters onto property where elk seek sanctuary.

I feel that many of the things we do, either by intent or accident, exacerbate the problem. Hunting the hell out of elk for as long as we do, causes them to take up year-round residency on private lands, rather than past spring-summer and fall-winter migratory behavior. FWP does have some input on that. Suppressing fires, logging, and forest thinning make for some compromised habitat that elk will walk right past on their way to better habitat on private grounds. FWP has limited input and no final say on those larger land management activities.

This is a very complicated social problem that we are asking wildlife scientists to solve with wildlife management tools. Kind of like asking a CPA to change the tranny in your truck; probably fraught with bad outcomes no matter how much money and effort is applied.

 

[BigHornRam]

Can't disagree with one thing you have stated here Randy. Well said.

 

[Nameless Range]

I am all in favor of doing whatever can be done to help the impacted landowners who are overrun with wildlife and who are working to try provide access. But, as explained by one of the ranchers in the article, even though they allow hunting the elk head to a neighbor's place before daylight where they are free from hunting pressure.

I took part in a management hunt yesterday and it was a bit perspective-changing. We showed just before daylight to look for a cow on a some private lands that combined were nearly 30 sq miles in size. A rancher pulled his truck up next to us and said, "You guys need to hurry over to the other side. The elk are here at night and by 8 o'clock they head off to the neighbor's." We hopped on the highway and boogied over there and sure enough hundreds of elk were crossing out of the management zone and onto the neighbors where they would be safe. One didn't make it. Like Fin mentioned from the article, they just head to the neighbor's place at daylight. Like clockwork.

The fences everywhere were destroyed - miles of fences. We spoke to two of the participating ranchers. Both were incredibly grateful and friendly, and were disappointed we only had one elk tag. This area has been hunted non-stop since the general season. It was a surreal experience, talking to landowners who were disappointed we weren't staying longer to kill more of their elk.

I am not for setting objectives based on landowner-tolerance, and I am not interested in the opinions of landowners who will complain about elk year-round but not allow the public in to hunt those elk and even sometimes capitalize on the elk on their land requiring trespass fees or leasing to outfitters. But I am convinced that where we were hunting, the landowners have real legitimate problems with elk overrunning their land.

 

[Schaaf]

Great post Randy.

 

[300stw]

Randy, I see where you are coming from and agree, I was throwing the article and some consideration out here for discussion. I never get to go to these elk management discussions, typically there not held In far ne Montana. I would like to see a room full of landowners hashing out a plan they all could agree on to adjust the problem , and I really wonder if Montana needs to hunt elk as long as we do. In comparison to surrounding states, Do any other states share the common problem of "overpopulated inaccessible elk",

that's the consensus I seem to get ever year around this time, I sure see lots of shorter hunting seasons elsewhere,,,

 

[Ben Lamb]

Damn straight. What Big Fin said.

 

[wyoelkfan15]

This problem is not limited to Montana. I know several places in Wyoming where the majority of the elk herd moves off their typical spring/summer/early fall range and inhabit private, hunter inaccessible property, for the remainder of the season.

 

[hank4elk]

Good stuff BF.
Tho I do not see that many WS types where I am in NM, the same situation exists with similar results.
Seems to me the ranchers/landowners working with G&F is a key factor, & not just the big guys.

 

[Irrelevant]

I think the manager at APR mentioned this in his podcast with renella, but as hunters and wildlife managers we should be working with the land owners with problems in more ways than shooting their elk. If "we" collectively paid for farm improvement to limit the elk damage it could go a long ways toward addressing the problem.

 

[Sytes]

I took part in a management hunt yesterday and it was a bit perspective-changing. We showed just before daylight to look for a cow on a some private lands that combined were nearly 30 sq miles in size. A rancher pulled his truck up next to us and said, "You guys need to hurry over to the other side. The elk are here at night and by 8 o'clock they head off to the neighbor's." We hopped on the highway and boogied over there and sure enough hundreds of elk were crossing out of the management zone and onto the neighbors where they would be safe. One didn't make it. Like Fin mentioned from the article, they just head to the neighbor's place at daylight. Like clockwork.

The fences everywhere were destroyed - miles of fences. We spoke to two of the participating ranchers. Both were incredibly grateful and friendly, and were disappointed we only had one elk tag. This area has been hunted non-stop since the general season. It was a surreal experience, talking to landowners who were disappointed we weren't staying longer to kill more of their elk.

I am not for setting objectives based on landowner-tolerance, and I am not interested in the opinions of landowners who will complain about elk year-round but not allow the public in to hunt those elk and even sometimes capitalize on the elk on their land requiring trespass fees or leasing to outfitters. But I am convinced that where we were hunting, the landowners have real legitimate problems with elk overrunning their land.

Great to read an observed setting of the situation.

I'm curious, how much of the trespass fee goes towards compensation for overall financial loss? I would imagine they are offered good $ though hearing of fencing destroyed, who knows the damage caused to crops, alfalfa, etc... My small experience, the deer have caused a bit of havoc on my little pile of 5 tons of hay. crapping, peeing, targeting the alfalfa and leaving the rest within our small square bales. I walk my fence line about once a week and typically there are a few areas to twist the wire so a hoof doesn't step within the loose portion, etc and this is on a simple 6-7 acres we've fenced for the horses... These are simply deer - our neighbor was hammered hard enough by our migratory small elk herd (maybe 10 or so) They had t invest additional money for a built barn wall structure to save their hay from picked, We've not had the elk hit our hay though it is a matter of time, I imagine.

 

[get-n-birdy]

Find food, find critters. Take one of their other needs away or put heavy doses of pressure on them and patterns change, but if good food is there, with ample other criteria's, they can work around some pressure and other issues. Animals can use private land for the sanctuary it provides if it's not being hunted, but if it doesn't have good quality feed, the lack of hunting pressure isn't going to be the end all, be all.

 

[BuzzH]

I agree with Randy on what he said. But, there still is a big pile of dead elk in the room nobody seems to want to talk about.

How many years has the FWP (at the very least 20), over-issued cow elk permits in areas with an elk overpopulation problem that were good unit wide? Its staggering the amount of pressure that has been applied to elk in many areas on PUBLIC land, while systematically less and less pressure applied to the overpopulation of elk on private.

In other words, we've been killing the wrong elk for 2 decades.

I get that there are some issues with habitat in some areas, but I can also make a pretty solid case that in many areas, where elk numbers are in the chit, that the habitat is still there, or perhaps even better now than 30+ years ago.

I personally applied fire to large areas in Petty Creek, Burdette, and Lupine creek to enhance elk habitat...but, when there are simply no elk to use it...what good does it do?

How about the Bob Marshall...the place burned from Lake Mountain to Augusta. Why are we saying that the 1910-1919 fires created all this wonderful habitat and that's elk numbers were so good because of it. Yet, we turn around and say the habitat just isn't good enough to support more elk POST fire in the Bob? I don't believe for one second the lack of elk in the Bob is because of a lack of habitat.

What about the Bitterroot? The place about burned to the ground in the early 2000's. I would say what has saved what elk hunting they have in the Root is because of guys like tjones and shootstraight who have put a massive amount of pressure on the FWP to actually try managing elk (permit only). The habitat there isn't the issue.

Of course, there is also the issue of severely reduced lion harvest in most of Western/Northwestern Montana combined with restrictive harvest on black bears. Wolves on the landscape as well as Grizzly bears now that weren't there before. Plus, absolutely no change in season structure.

I just don't think its honest, at least in large portions of mostly public lands West of the continental divide to blame crap elk numbers on a lack of habitat. There isn't even close to enough elk to occupy what habitat is there.