Elk Packing Services are not a thing you must have a plan

[MThuntr]

You ain't wrong about that... I was in a wilderness area so it wasn't an option lol...

yeah the whole wilderness thing throws a monkey in the wrench. Heck in this case you couldn't even us a game cart which is one of my preferred methods in a couple spots I frequent.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Actually, in Wyoming as long as the carcass tag is attached, I can transport another person's carcass for them whether it be out of the field or to town for processing or process it myself which I actually do. It's in the game regs. r.

Correct, someone can transport for you out of the goodness of their heart, but doing it for money is illegal outfitting. You can't pay someone to move your animal unless they hold the guiding permit for that area. In some states even transporting stock to the trailhead is illegal.

 

[----]

Ignore this post- talking out of my ass.

 

[TheJason]

Actually, in Wyoming as long as the carcass tag is attached, I can transport another person's carcass for them whether it be out of the field or to town for processing

Not for money you can't, unless you are a licensed outfitter/guide.

 

[WyoDoug]

Correct, someone can transport for you out of the goodness of their heart, but doing it for money is illegal outfitting. You can't pay someone to move your animal unless they hold the guiding permit for that area. In some states even transporting stock to the trailhead is illegal.

I worked as a wrangler for several outfitters in my 30s. We routinely packed the game out as part of the deal. It was not explicit in the contract. It's just something we did. This I want to see the statue quoted because there are a couple processors who will come get your buffalo where you killed it and process it. They are on the pricey side, but these type if services I have seen performed by a number of commercial outfitters, least back in my younger days. I went in a number of times with a hunter and pack mules and we hauled their game back to camp. Back then we included it in the package, and hunters were kind of expected to tip the guide or wrangler for use of the pack mules. That was Colorado in the 80s and yes the law may have changed, but until I get to reading the game regs for Colorado and Wyoming, I just don't see why outfitters and guides can't but members of the hunting party can. Some states might have such restrictions, but I don't think Wyoming or Colorado do.

 

[----]

I'm sure a couple people will chime in and say oh, well in '12 I paid a guy... well that was illegal and CPAW has been cracking down on this activity.

Wait, so I went back and re-read this. Am I wrong, is this is a CPAW rule? Or are they just enforcing it on behalf of USFS? Maybe things are different down there and my above post is wrong.

 

[RockinU]

 

[KipCarson]

Good post, I checked in to a packer to get a potential elk out year before last in a wilderness area I was hunting. I was met with voicemails, no return calls, and quickly realized there were only 2 options and neither were interested in getting out an elk unless you paid them for a full pack in/out drop camp hunt. The best plan is to have buddies with strong backs, strong loyalties and minds too weak to know what they’re getting themselves into!

 

[Deleted member 28227]

@Randy11 and @WyoDoug

The rule is that in Colorado you have to have a guide license to provide "outfitter services" as defined by statue by the state on lands that you do not own. You can guide your own property or your employers without a license. If you guide without a license on property you do not own you are subject to:

"Any person who engages or offers or attempts to engage in activities as an outfitter without an active registration issued under this article commits a class 2 misdemeanor and shall be punished as provided in section 18-1.3-501, C.R.S., for the first offense, and for the second or any subsequent offense, the person commits a class 6 felony and shall be punished as provided in section 18-1.3-401, C.R.S "

http://leg.colorado.gov/sites/default/files/images/olls/crs2018-title-12.pdf

The USFS allows individuals to guide and outfit on our public lands. Outfitters are required to have a permit and are assigned a specific area. Small areas may have a single outfitter larger will have several, not sure if their territories overlap or not. In my experience they do not, but I'm not an expert.

https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd605806.pdf

The BLM has special use permits for these activities as well, and similarly defines areas of operation.

In Colorado Parks and Wildlife Officers as LEOs of the state enforce these rules.

Colorado Outfitters Website

Benefits of Using a Registered Outfitter - Colorado Outfitters Association

@WyoDoug, you were working for an outfitter under their umbrella license and were therefore legal, it is legal for processors to make deals with outfitters to pack out clients buffalo under their license, it's legal for an outfitter to give another outfitter permission to pack in their area under their license. What is illegal is driving up to some rancher with horses in his yard and offering him $500 for a pack out, similarly it would be illegal for an outfitter with Permit area A to come pack you out in Permit area B, without permission.

 

[----]

The rule is that in Colorado you have to have a guide license to provide "outfitter services" as defined by statue by the state on lands that you do not own. You can guide your own property or your employers without a license. If you guide without a license on property you do not own you are subject to:

Good to know! It's either different here than there or I have always misunderstood the Montana law. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[TheJason]

Good to know! It's either different here than there or I have always misunderstood the Montana law. Thanks for the clarification.

It's the same in Montana.

(10) "Outfitter" means any person, except a person providing services on real property that the person owns for the primary pursuit of bona fide agricultural interests, who for consideration provides any saddle or pack animal, facilities, camping equipment, vehicle, watercraft, or other conveyance, or personal service for any person to hunt, trap, capture, take, kill, or pursue any game, including fish, and who accompanies that person, either part or all of the way, on an expedition for any of these purposes or supervises a licensed guide or outfitter's assistant in accompanying that person.

 

[----]

It's the same in Montana.

And this same rule covers all landownership other than private?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Good to know! It's either different here than there or I have always misunderstood the Montana law. Thanks for the clarification.

I think there is a ton of illegal outfitting that happens throughout the west, in MT or WY it probably goes largely unnoticed, but in CO where there might be 30 trucks at a trailhead, the DOW officers will often ask every person with horses. Especially if one dude is covered in blood wearing camo and the rest are in carhartts.

 

[TheJason]

I want to see the statue quoted

(iii) "Guide services" means for hire or
remuneration, accompanying and providing assistance to a hunter
in the field relating to the taking of any big or trophy game
animal except as provided in W.S. 23-2-401(b) and (c);
(iv) "Outfitter" means a person including a hunting
club, who advertises or holds himself out to the public for hire
for the purpose of financial gain in order to provide guide or
packing services for the purpose of taking any big or trophy
game animal, excluding any person who furnishes pack or riding
animals and other equipment only to a hunter for his personal
temporary use and any landowner providing outfitter services on
private lands owned or leased by him. As used in this
paragraph:

You exchange money and it's now outfitting.

 

[TheJason]

And this same rule covers all landownership other than private?

It actually applies on private land too, unless you are the owner of the property.

 

[WyoDoug]

@WyoDoug, you were working for an outfitter under their umbrella license and were therefore legal, it is legal for processors to make deals with outfitters to pack out clients buffalo under their license, it's legal for an outfitter to give another outfitter permission to pack in their area under their license. What is illegal is driving up to some rancher with horses in his yard and offering him $500 for a pack out, similarly it would be illegal for an outfitter with Permit area A to come pack you out in Permit area B, without permission.

Exactly my point. What I understood the original post to claim it was illegal for an outfitter or guide or anyone else to retrieve your meat for you and pack it out. In my experience anyways, it was perfectly legal to do just that. I also think it is legal to charge a fee to recover someone's meat for them. After all, there is a quite a bit of labor involved in that along with use of mules if the outfitter has them. I need to find and read the statute for both Wyoming and Colorado that covers it to be sure, but I think the clause in the game regs is being misread.

 

[WyoDoug]

Exactly my point. What I understood the original post to claim it was illegal for an outfitter or guide or anyone else to retrieve your meat for you and pack it out. In my experience anyways, it was perfectly legal to do just that. I also think it is legal to charge a fee to recover someone's meat for them. After all, there is a quite a bit of labor involved in that along with use of mules if the outfitter has them.

You exchange money and it's now outfitting.

Yes, but not illegal. You have to be licensed to be an outfitter in most states. Outfitters, guides and packers can charge a fee to retrieve your game for you and some do, especially closer you get to Jackson Hole or Cody Wyoming where a lot of elk and buffalo hunts are done by the wealthier than I am type people. I do know from my experience working as a wrangler in the 80s that having someone retrieve and pack your game out for you does not come cheap. You are best served by trying to make sure that is included in the fee they charge.

 

[TheJason]

Yes, but not illegal.

I never said it was illegal to do it. I said it was illegal to do it without a license. You're comparing apples to oranges.

 

[Big Sky Guy]

What about driving up to the rancher and offering $500 to rent the stock? I hear of guys renting llamas and always thought that was OK?

Dealing with my hail claim I now find it’s funny to me that you can be a construction contractor in Montana and not legally obligated to carry a license or insurance but it’s illegal to guide (or pack out) without a license. Seems backwards, although I’d prefer the government stay out of most things and let a mans work and reputation determine if he can do business but I realize it’s 2019 not 1819.

 

[WyoDoug]

What about driving up to the rancher and offering $500 to rent the stock? I hear of guys renting llamas and always thought that was OK?

Dealing with my hail claim I now find it’s funny to me that you can be a construction contractor in Montana and not legally obligated to carry a license or insurance but it’s illegal to guide (or pack out) without a license. Seems backwards, although I’d prefer the government stay out of most things and let a mans work and reputation determine if he can do business but I realize it’s 2019 not 1819.

You can. In Colorado, I used to rent from Sierra Ranches. Not sure if they are still in business. You also have to be careful where you take them as there are restrictions on moving livestock from out-of-state and if you take livestock into National Forest areas, they have to be fed certified weed free hay. Some places require a vet certificate, but someone who rents horses, mules or llamas knows all bout that and they take care of that. When I rented horses and mules from Sierra, I had to provide liability insurance for both the trailer and the livestock.