Economic Benefits of Wolves

[BuzzH]

The only thing I disagree with is the MTFWP and how they have managed that yellowstone late hunt.

I dont think they did worth a shit managing that at all and to blame it all on wolves is pure BS. How can you say you're proactively managing an elk herd while allowing nearly 2000 tags for the last ten years? I dont get it, if the herd was declining for the last ten, like the MTFWP claims, why the hell were they still issuing that many tags? Where was the MTFWP commission? When a unit goes from 1100 tags to 100 tags in a single YEAR that problem was not created in that one year, thats totally reactionary management and only managing when things become a crisis. Why wasnt the FWP reducing tags ten years ago if they thought the elk populations would plummet? I bet if they would have reduced late tags to 500 a season THEN, we wouldnt be having this dicussion NOW. Thank you MTFWP and the commission for once again managing in the best interest of outfitters/guides, hotel owners, landowners, etc. etc. and not managing wildlife...status quo for the FWP.

The grizzly population in the park and surrounding areas are at all-time highs, a study was just posted here stating that of the calf elk killed 60% was due to bears. You throw in some reduced winter range north of the park, some PISS POOR management by the FWP, an elk herd heavily skewed toward older animals, WOLVES, and thats how you arrive at the current elk population. It isnt all the wolves.

 

[Ithaca 37]

Greenhorn, I contacted the Idaho Chapter of the National Wildlife Federation last night and they are going to discuss the idea at their Board of Directors meeting this week. The director I contacted last night said it sounded like a good idea and he couldn't think of any downside. He was also going to call one of the legislators he often works with on legislation and discuss it with him. He did say he thinks he remembers the Idaho Legislature doing something like that last year but, even if they did, he couldn't think of why they couldn't do it again this year. Maybe even in stronger language than last time. I'd sure love to see the Idaho and Montana Chapters of NWF co-ordinate some effort between sportsman's groups in both states to ask their legislators to do something about Wyoming. Maybe even the RMEF or FNAWS chapters from each state could start working on it together. I really don't care who does it-------just so it gets done.

Where's BigHornRam when we need him? Isn't he real active with Montana FNAWS?

 

[Bullhound]

Thanks Ithaca

We don't agree on alot of issues but thanks for making that call. I appreciate the effort. I've been talking to F&G a bunch here lately and been seeing and hearing a butt load of wolves (Dec).

 

[Ithaca 37]

Bullhound, After talking to a few people about this idea I'm starting to think it might be one of my better ones! Wouldn't it be great if the sportsman's groups could unite behind an effort like this and work with the cattlemen and woolgrowers associations on it! Even the Wyoming sportsman's groups should get involved in it. Everyone who wants to see wolves get delisted and managed at minimum population levels should be in favor of putting pressure on the WY legislature to quit holding up the process. I think it would be a great issue for lots of groups to rally around.

Who would be against it, maybe some PETA nuts?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Are we in the same conversation here or have you had one too many Hot Buttered Rums?

Why would I complain to the MTFWP?? They are reducing the tags, as a matter of fact they are nearly eliminating them because the elk numbers have plummeted. I have no complaints with the FWP, as they have to reduce the permits based on the status of the elk herd.

Hey Greenhorn,
I have never liked them Hot Buttered Rums. About all I drank was a couple of brews this weekend while watching a bit of the Liberty Bowl with BSU almost knocking off Louisville. I was busy coaching in an AAU basketball tournament, so I missed much of the game. In the Bowl game, BSU made a respectable showing, and I was able to cap a couple of beers in the 4th quarter. Hey, by the way, how did them Bobcats do this year??? Kinda thinking maybe the Griz kept them as their bitches??? hump

But back to your loss of "premeir" elk hunts. What does your Wildlife Biology tell you caused the one year "plummet"? Was it the bears that eat 60% of the calves, or was it the loss of habitat, or was it the FWP (that you have no complaints with) that kept offering thousands of tags while herd numbers were decreasing? Or was it the fact that this year, the wolves ate all the Elk, instead of like the last 9 years when the wolves refused to eat ANY elk....

Ithica is definitely on the right track, and he has already got phone calls made. Maybe this is the year that Greenhorn gets "political" and starts calling his legislators in MT to do the same?

We can all feel sorry for the owner of the local diner who isn't getting to sell breakfast to hunters and feed them beer in the afternoon, or, you can get involved and get the wolves de-listed and start "managing" them toward the minimum numbers Idaho and MT have submitted in their plans.

 

[ringer]

Good luck with getting Wyoming to help delist the legendary wolf. Nothing in that state anymore but queers and steers. Actors and rich dudes bought up controlling interest years ago and they just want to keep all those nasty cracker assed hunters out of their back yards. They are talkin' about moving the Cody Museum to Scottsdale 'cause Wild Bill's corpse is rolling over in his grave. He is so embarrassed he wanted to rest on his back with an apple in his mouth. Keep the fudgepackers from gettin' to him. JMHO.

 

[Nemont]

Apparently this is an international problem. Maybe the French have it figured out.

French police probe trade in wolf heads

January 03 2005 at 02:54PM

Paris - French police are investigating a possible trade in wolf heads operating around a nature reserve in the south of the country, newspapers reported on Monday.

Collectors are suspected of paying several thousand euros to acquire the heads of animals from the Gevaudan wolf park in the Lozere department, Liberation said.

A preliminary enquiry was launched two weeks ago after hikers found the headless carcass of a wolf hidden beneath a pile of branches, according to the local Midi Libre daily.

"There are people out there who dream of having a stuffed wolf head in their living room wall. WTF??? If there is a trade going on, it would be extremely serious. Dead or alive, the wolf is a protected species," said Christian Hosy of France Nature Environment.

'There are people out there who dream of having a stuffed wolf head in their living room wall'
Around 100 wolves live in semi-liberty at the Gevaudan park. Any that die are supposed to be incinerated at a veterinary clinic.

Pierre Spirito, the park's manager, told Liberation that he had conducted an internal investigation and there was no evidence of wrong-doing among the 20 employees.

Wolves disappeared from the wild in France before World War 2, but have recently been reintroduced to parts of the Alps where their presence is fiercely resented by local sheep-farmers. - Sapa-AFP

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=14&click_id=143&art_id=qw1104754863492B216


EG,

Hey, by the way, how did them Bobcats do this year??? Kinda thinking maybe the Griz kept them as their bitches???

You are treading on pretty thin ice with that comment.
Nemont

 

[1_pointer]

IT- I think the biggest benefit would be getting the sportsman's groups and grazing associations to agree to be on the same side on this issue for future road blocks as well. Highly varied interest groups working together are pretty well recieved by the public at large IME. Even more so if you can get some 'non-consumptive' focused groups involved.

 

[BigHornRam]

Once a griz, always a griz. Once a bobcat, always a pussy.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Buzz, how could the FWP better managed this elk herd?

This particular herd is known to fluctuate quite a bit, however the tag quotas for the late hunt have been on the decline all along since the wolf intro. Maybe not enough, I don't know. I doubt hunters are targeting the calves like the predators. The lack of the bottom age group is what will be the death of the herd.

I don't think habitat is the issue here, there's a pile of good public land winter range in both the Yellowstone and Gallatin drainages. There's also been a lot of recent work with additional habitat aquisitions, Dome Mtn. and Daily Lake area, Cedar Creek, the CUT swap in the Beatie Gultch and Cinnabar areas, as well as the Taylor Folk of the Gallatin. Where is the reduced winter range for this particular herd?

Definately the grizzlies eat elk also... how can the FWP manage them?

Wolves were the crowning blow and we now get to have the uncontrolled predators manage the elk. The only solution is to start killing some of them.

This has went in circles, sorry. I'm chapped about it.

ElkGunner: Check this out.. ElkGunner's Hero

 

[Nemont]

Once a griz, always a griz. Once a bobcat, always a pussy

All I know is you can't spell scum without UM.

Nemont

 

[BuzzH]

Greenhorn,

How could the MTFWP better managed that herd?

For starters how about looking down the road more than 6 months and managing based on their OWN population estimates, herd age, etc. etc. etc. I dont find it shocking that a very old (as in lots of old animals) herd that we've all known about for several years is continuing to decline, makes sense. When you carry a large number of unproductive cows, recruitment sucks, pretty basic biology. What did the FWP do? Keep whacking and stacking cows on late hunts...HMMMM I wonder why the herd is down????

Yeah, they did reduce the permits very, very, very, gradually over the last ten years, in no small part because of cry-baby motel owners, outfitters, etc. who wouldnt be able to profit from MY public wildlife. It sure would be nice to see the MTFWP start managing wildlife instead of cater to every special interest group with nothing but dollar signs in their eyes. Wishful thinking, and likely wont happen in my lifetime, or anyone elses.

Look, I'm all in agreement that the wolves need to be kept in check, but I dont for a single minute blame this entire Yellowstone elk population decline on wolves only. Certainly they are part of the problem, but only one part of many.

 

[The Hedgehog]

Buzz, ok, fair enough, I'll buy that. They should have reduced tags more in the earlier years to compensate for the wolves and grizzlies. I'd be more happy to share with wolves and grizzlies if I could also spank a few of them for being naughty.

Pay close attention on your Cody elk hunt. I spoke last night with a friend who grew up there and spends a lot of time hunting elk around Cody. He told me the wolves are really cleaning house around there also, although I'm not sure if it's in the unit you'll be in, I think primarily the one north of there??

I had a really disappointing trip to Gardiner last weekend... borderline shocking.

 

[BigHornRam]

Nemont,

I don't have a bear in this fight since I'm a Badger Alum.. And they didn't do to well this weekend either. I just like messing with MSU fans. They are easy to fire up!

 

[BigHornRam]

Here is an article from last year concerning the National Wildlife Federation and their views on delisting the wolf. Why would sportsmen who want to proceed with delisting, want to be involved with these guys?

Conservationist backtracks on wolf remarks
By SHERRY DEVLIN of the Missoulian
Lambasted by his fellow conservationists for remarks he made at a law conference in Missoula last week, National Wildlife Federation attorney Tom France issued a written statement Monday chiding the federal government for failing to recover the gray wolf "on suitable habitat across a significant portion of its historic range."

"Removing Endangered Species Act protections for gray wolves in the West is clearly premature," France said in a statement issued by the Wildlife Federation's Washington, D.C., office.

France was on vacation and could not be reached to elaborate on the statement.
However, the group's national communications director said France's comments at last week's Public Land and Resources Law Conference in Missoula caused "some difficulties" and were contrary to the federation's national wolf policy.

During a panel discussion Thursday afternoon, France said he was dismayed when a coalition of 17 environmental groups filed suit hoping to stop the removal of wolves from federal protection.

The return of wolves to Montana, Idaho and Wyoming is a success story unequaled in the act's 30-year history, France said, yet conservationists seem intent on "snatching defeat from the jaws of victory."

"I am disappointed that these groups cannot find another, better way to move wolf recovery forward," he said.

By insisting that the federal government return wolves not only to Montana, Idaho and Wyoming, but also to Colorado, Oregon, Utah and other Western states, the environmentalists' lawsuit threatens to undermine public support for endangered species protection, France said.

The remarks apparently ignited a firestorm, not only within the environmental community, but also within the National Wildlife Federation.

NWF communications director Ben McNitt said the group felt "it was important that our national policy be clearly articulated."

France's comments at the conference, carried in a Missoulian story Friday and then in a subsequent Associated Press story, "created some confusion and controversy," McNitt said.

McNitt could not say why France made the comments. "I wasn't there," he said.

But the statement released Monday, he emphasized, is the Wildlife Federation's official policy.

As released, France's statement said:

"The National Wildlife Federation and other conservation organizations are in agreement that the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has failed in its mandate under the Endangered Species Act to recover the gray wolf on suitable habitat across a significant portion of its historic range."

Last month, the statement said, the Wildlife Federation filed a 60-day notice of intent to sue the Fish and Wildlife Service over its national wolf rule - which would not reintroduce wolves to a number of states historically inhabited by the species.

The National Wildlife Federation wants the federal government to recover wolves on suitable habitat in places like Maine and New Hampshire, according to France's statement.

He continued: "The National Wildlife Federation is focusing its legal resources on a campaign to restore the gray wolf to its rightful place in the northeastern United States and supports those groups working to restore the gray wolf to other portions of its historic range."

Bill Snape, chief counsel for Defenders of Wildlife, said he did discuss France's remarks with the Wildlife Federation's senior attorney in Washington, D.C.

Snape is lead counsel on the environmentalists' lawsuit against the Fish and Wildlife Service, and was at Thursday's conference in Missoula.

"I expressed my less-than-happy views in private, and they will remain private," Snape said. "But I am pleased that they issued the statement clarifying Tom's remarks."

 

[Tom]

replacement money.

It would be cool if the diversity type people, wolf lovers, whatever you call them, would provide a replacement fee for the the money that the hunters would give, if they hunted the elk, instead of the wolves.

I guess there's less tags, a couple of people seemed to agree on that. Say they are a loss due to wolves. Who replaces those lost revenues to the fish and game? Nobody, right?

What does fish and game do to get money then? If somebody, besides hunter's footed that lost revenue, wouldn't they start working toward letting the wolves be hunted.

Every reintroduction program needs to collect money from people for each animal who want those animals. When the population grows, their funds will run out, pretty soon, they'll be glad for some hunters to help them out.

Who pays for reintroduction programs? Is it mostly hunters or who?

 

[JoseCuervo]

Greenhorn,

Sorry to inform you that Kerry isn't my hero. I don't spend a lot of time lamenting "what could have been done" or "what was done wrong 10 years ago". Bottom line, just like the wolves, Dubya is here, and both of them need "managed" and "controlled" from making our Public Lands less productive for those of us who like to fish and hunt.

And the only way to "manage" is thru the legal channels and methods provided. With Dubya, that means suing his Administration every time they do something Anti-Hunting and Anti-Fishing (which is daily). And with Wolves, it means getting them de-listed and requiring the Feds to comply with the agreements and the State's plans.

I think Idaho has TOO many wolves right now, according to Idaho's plan. That means, on Day 1 of Idaho's control, we can start "managing" the wolves. We just need the cowboys in Wyoming to pull their heads out.

Why spend any time blaming the wolves for the future. Just as your "hero" Dubya said about the dams on the Lower Snake River when discussing the Salmon of Idaho, the Dams are a "natural part of the environment", now, the wolves are a "natural part of the environment. Deal with 'em.

Nemont,
Just checking to see if you are still reading the thread.... Remember, at BSU, the BS comes before You....

 

[ringer]

Dubya will fix this mess soon with his judicial appointments including at least two supremes then we will get back to using good science and not emotion to manage forests and wildlife. Those hundred million dollar legal funds won't mean so much if the top court kicks a few lawyers in the teeth. Life is good and I smell spotted owl in the oven.

 

[Ithaca 37]

BHR, There's a difference between the NWF and the state chapters and the state chapters don't always agree with the national organization. Does the MT chapter have a policy on wolves? I don't know and don't care . I know the Idaho chapter of NWF wants to manage them as soon as possible. Are you saying the MT chapter of NWF doesn't want the wolves in the tri-state area delisted as soon as possible?

Why doesn't MT FNAWS be a big hero and unite all the sportsman's groups in MT to put pressure on the WY crowd? You don't have to wait for somebody else to do it.

 

[JoseCuervo]

It would be cool if the diversity type people, wolf lovers, whatever you call them, would provide a replacement fee for the the money that the hunters would give, if they hunted the elk, instead of the wolves.

I guess there's less tags, a couple of people seemed to agree on that. Say they are a loss due to wolves. Who replaces those lost revenues to the fish and game? Nobody, right?

What does fish and game do to get money then? If somebody, besides hunter's footed that lost revenue, wouldn't they start working toward letting the wolves be hunted.

Every reintroduction program needs to collect money from people for each animal who want those animals. When the population grows, their funds will run out, pretty soon, they'll be glad for some hunters to help them out.

Who pays for reintroduction programs? Is it mostly hunters or who?

Uhhh... Tom, The wolves were reintroduced because it was the Law. Not because some group wanted to truck some wolves in from Canada. Therefore, the Feds have paid all the costs of the program, and the Environmentalists have paid the $140k for the lost range maggots.

But I like your idea. I think the Welfare Ranchers should be paying for every antelope that I can't hunt due to shitty range conditions. I think the Power Companies should be paying for every Salmon and Steelhead I can't catch because of dams that blocked off thousands of miles of habitat. I think the loggers should double pay for all the Salmon I can't catch due to poor logging practices. I think their should be a tax on ATVs for the loss of wilderness and habitat that has caused Deer numbers to plummet in Idaho.

I think you are on to something.....