Was really sad to see a gram post form Corey Jacobsen yesterday using E-bikes off road. They are without any question motorcycles and need to be treated as such in regards to off-road and non-motorized trail restrictions. These are going to become a huge issue in the near future. What's your take?
E-Bikes
- Thread starter BuckRut
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Ebikes- booooooo
Nameless Range
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Lots of threads on this already. I am indifferent to them as long as they are recognized and limited to trails typified to being what they are - motorized vehicles.
I don't think anybody has a problem with e-bikes and atv's when they are used legally but we only see the results and damage caused by those that do not follow the rules.
The problem is that they are being classified the same as pedal bikes "legally".
mtstandard.com
Electric bicycles allowed in Glacier and Yellowstone, some other federal lands
Electric bicycles are now legal on federal lands in Montana, including on bike trails in Glacier and Yellowstone National Parks.
Focus
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Have you ridden one?
I have not. Not sure what relevance that has.
Focus
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Probably none as long as you understand the different types of e-propulsion that’s out there. There’s a ton of difference between something like an Alta or KTM vs. a Specialized. I don’t know what brand Corey’s on but I assume its similar to a Specialized and not something like an Alta with a throttle.
sbhooper
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From what I understand, there are some prerequisites to using them. You must have long hair tied up in a douche knot, wear skinny jeans and exclusively shoot a Crudmucker.
The problem when the government writes all these different rules like this is that the line between pedal bike and motorcycle starts to blur. It should be simple. Either it's motorized or it's not. There isn't anything in between.
Focus
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I've been riding mountain bikes and dirt bikes since my early 20's (about 30 years...yeesh!) and until I actually rented an e-bike from a local bike shop and rode it around for an afternoon, I did not understand “what” they were and what they did. Now I do. There is no throttle. Its not like you can just sit there and twist your wrist or thumb the throttle lever....you still have to pedal. And the assist is only effective under 20 mph. Above 20 the assist shuts off. If the frames on an e-bike weren't so bulky and different from a regular bike, you'd never know the difference between the two if a person rode either past you on the street. You may notice the e-bike user not pedaling quite as hard.
The argument that they have the potential of causing more damage than a mountain bike is somewhat baseless because the assist you get when pedaling isn’t enough to spin out the back tire like what happens when you pin it on a dirt bike. Not saying you can’t spin out a back tire on an e-bike, I've done it on a mountain bike plenty of times, just saying the level of instant trail damage that can occur on an e-bike is minuscule, and comparable to a regular ol' mountain bike.
I hunt "past the gate" on Boise NF land (not "capital W" wilderness) here in Idaho and if I saw an e-bike or a regular ol' mountain bike "past the gate" it wouldn't bother me a bit. If I saw an ATV, dirt bike or something like an Alta "past the gate" then I'd start rolling video and reporting it.
I'm not familiar with the brand of bike that Corey's using so I have no idea if its comparable in operation to the Specialized e-bike that I rode that one day. I would hope Corey and crew aren't violating any laws (can't imagine, they're pretty solid citizens from what I've seen).
The argument that they have the potential of causing more damage than a mountain bike is somewhat baseless because the assist you get when pedaling isn’t enough to spin out the back tire like what happens when you pin it on a dirt bike. Not saying you can’t spin out a back tire on an e-bike, I've done it on a mountain bike plenty of times, just saying the level of instant trail damage that can occur on an e-bike is minuscule, and comparable to a regular ol' mountain bike.
I hunt "past the gate" on Boise NF land (not "capital W" wilderness) here in Idaho and if I saw an e-bike or a regular ol' mountain bike "past the gate" it wouldn't bother me a bit. If I saw an ATV, dirt bike or something like an Alta "past the gate" then I'd start rolling video and reporting it.
I'm not familiar with the brand of bike that Corey's using so I have no idea if its comparable in operation to the Specialized e-bike that I rode that one day. I would hope Corey and crew aren't violating any laws (can't imagine, they're pretty solid citizens from what I've seen).
Nameless Range
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@Focus , under the new executive order that allows e-bikes on Dept of Interior lands, all three classes of e-bikes are allowed, including those with a throttle and an assist up to 28 mph.
I am under the belief that we have to get ahead of this before the technology gets ahead of us.
I am under the belief that we have to get ahead of this before the technology gets ahead of us.
Focus
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I hear what you are saying. I think there's a lot of confusion also between what's allowed on NF land, national parks and "capital W" wilderness areas. There's a big difference between a seasonally-closed road in a national forest, and a trail in a Wilderness area. I don't see the harm in riding a regular pedal bike nor a "pedal-assist" e-bike on a seasonally-closed national forest road. Do I do it now? No. But it has got me thinking.....actually the photo in Corey's Instagram post showing the trailer in tow got me thinking. The idea of riding a bike wearing a 30# backpack and carrying a rifle kinda freaks me out....balance (and crashing) issues.
And the word "jealous" comes to mind.........would I be jealous of the guy with the pack string I came across in a Wilderness area while hunting? Yes. Would I be jealous of the guy riding an e-bike (or regular bike) behind the gate of a seasonally-closed road in a national forest while hunting? Same type of Yes answer, no less, no more.
Focus
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So I would have to draw a line somewhere and my line would be at the throttle. I'm for pedal-assist up to 20 mph (no throttle), but after that, ban 'em.
Focus
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Right now I'm riding a chair and a keyboard. I'm happy to report, neither have throttles. 
COEngineer
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This is completely false. There absolutely are e-bikes that have throttles. My neighbor has one. Please delete/edit this post.
Focus
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I’ll print an amendment to it. I don’t know how to edit/delete it.
I stated my stance on this issue in post #14 (nothing that has a throttle).
My experience with e-bikes has only been with those made by Specialized which don’t have a throttle. Apparently this type is in one of three classes of e-bikes (assumption based on @Nameless Range ’s post above). What the parameters of the other two classes are I haven’t a clue because I’m not in the market for one.
@BuckRut asked for an opinion and I gave mine based on the experience I have with the topic. I’m here to learn as well as share my experiences and perspective with others.
I’d like to hear from others who have experience on the various classes of e-bikes and if they’ve utilized them in a hunting situation.
WapitiBob
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The National Forest TMA regulation:
Forest Service:
File Code: 2300/2350/7700
Subject: Electric Bikes and Trail Management
The Forest Service’s Travel Management Rule (TMR) and E-Bikes:
The TMR defines “motor vehicle” as “any vehicle which is self-propelled, other than:
(1) a vehicle operated on rails; and
(2) any wheelchair or mobility device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.”
36 CFR 212.1. E-bikes have a motor, thereby are self propelled, and are not covered by the exceptions in the definition.
Therefore, e-bikes are motor vehicles and are subject to regulation under the TMR, which requires designation of National Forest System (NFS) roads, NFS trails, and areas on NFS lands for motor vehicle use. 36 CFR 212.51(a).
Direction on e-bikes was included in a response in the Federal Register notice for the final over-snow vehicle rule.
The response states: “New technologies that merge bicycles and motors, such as e-bikes, are considered motor vehicles under §212.1 of the TMR.” 80 Fed. Reg. 4503 (Jan. 28, 2015).
/////////
Link to actual Interior Dept Order:
"....
Sec. 4 Policy.
Consistent with governing laws and regulations:
a) For the purpose of this Order, "e-bikes" shall mean "low-speed electric bicycle" as defined by 15 U.S.C. § 2085 and falling within one of the following classifications:
i) "Class 1 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour;
ii) "Class 2 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour; and
iii) "Class 3 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour.
b) E-bikes shall be allowed where other types of bicycles are allowed; and c) E-bikes shall not be allowed where other types of bicycles are prohibited. "
Forest Service:
File Code: 2300/2350/7700
Subject: Electric Bikes and Trail Management
The Forest Service’s Travel Management Rule (TMR) and E-Bikes:
The TMR defines “motor vehicle” as “any vehicle which is self-propelled, other than:
(1) a vehicle operated on rails; and
(2) any wheelchair or mobility device, including one that is battery-powered, that is designed solely for use by a mobility-impaired person for locomotion, and that is suitable for use in an indoor pedestrian area.”
36 CFR 212.1. E-bikes have a motor, thereby are self propelled, and are not covered by the exceptions in the definition.
Therefore, e-bikes are motor vehicles and are subject to regulation under the TMR, which requires designation of National Forest System (NFS) roads, NFS trails, and areas on NFS lands for motor vehicle use. 36 CFR 212.51(a).
Direction on e-bikes was included in a response in the Federal Register notice for the final over-snow vehicle rule.
The response states: “New technologies that merge bicycles and motors, such as e-bikes, are considered motor vehicles under §212.1 of the TMR.” 80 Fed. Reg. 4503 (Jan. 28, 2015).
/////////
Link to actual Interior Dept Order:
"....
Sec. 4 Policy.
Consistent with governing laws and regulations:
a) For the purpose of this Order, "e-bikes" shall mean "low-speed electric bicycle" as defined by 15 U.S.C. § 2085 and falling within one of the following classifications:
i) "Class 1 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour;
ii) "Class 2 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that may be used exclusively to propel the bicycle, and that is not capable of providing assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 20 miles per hour; and
iii) "Class 3 electric bicycle" shall mean an electric bicycle equipped with a motor that provides assistance only when the rider is pedaling, and that ceases to provide assistance when the bicycle reaches the speed of 28 miles per hour.
b) E-bikes shall be allowed where other types of bicycles are allowed; and c) E-bikes shall not be allowed where other types of bicycles are prohibited. "
Focus
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Thank you for the post @WapitiBob . I read your post and also the attached order dated August 2019.
Interesting that two different .gov entities see these e-bikes in two different lights. Department of Interior (parent to BLM, NP’s and BOR) says they are bikes (all three classes at that) and not motor vehicles (August 2019 order). Department of Agriculture (and parent to USFS) says they are motor vehicles (TMR language dated 2015).
Wish they’d get on the same page. I’d be in favor of class 1’s on seasonally-closed USFS roads (they aren’t allowed now).
Interesting that two different .gov entities see these e-bikes in two different lights. Department of Interior (parent to BLM, NP’s and BOR) says they are bikes (all three classes at that) and not motor vehicles (August 2019 order). Department of Agriculture (and parent to USFS) says they are motor vehicles (TMR language dated 2015).
Wish they’d get on the same page. I’d be in favor of class 1’s on seasonally-closed USFS roads (they aren’t allowed now).
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