Do you guys really believe that all ATV riders break the law?

[Ithaca 37]

Amazing! Up until the last page or two of this topic I was almost convinced that, against all common sense, AZ was wide open to off road travel by any size vehicles. Not only that, in areas where off road travel was not allowed, exceptions were made for retreiving game. This misperception of mine went back pretty far----maybe a couple years-----since we started getting into debates about ATVs.

What percentage of ATV riders in AZ do you suppose have the same misperception? I'd guess about 99%. What about people driving full size vehicles?

 

[cjcj]

Hey Buzz i will be glad to take your "coin" its not to late to bet. But you and the Gunner cannot be serious, at least Ithaca is "rational" enough to see that it is legal in some areas and illegal in others [true] OK are you highly educated Einstiens following so far? Go back and read my "original " statement OK are you still following? Good i hope i haven`t lost you [catch your breath] Now just slowly ,slower now take it easy. did you see the A.R.S. 17-454 code? Yes look real close the part where it says [EXCEPT! for the "SOLE"purpose of retrieving big game] now go back to the Gunners post where it says SOME!are closed, that would mean "not all" or some might be open

Now i have worked with 10 year old kids who can understand the "concept" of Exception to the main rule, There is no reason why a grown up educated Man can`t . Buzz /Gunner just be reasonable and admit it.If you want to talk about anything else concerning ATV`s i will be glad too, But if you are going to Challenge my statement then just admit that you have found True and factual statements that support my post! its not hard, after all it a matter of the law and that is a definate fact jack!!!!, don`t try to tell me where i hunt OK cause you don`t have a clue. don`t try to tell me when its illegal to go offroad [we all know all of that] Just tell us if you can muster the courage When/where and how it is perfectly legal to pick up /retreive downed big game in AZ. IF you can`t then......you need to stay home and never hunt out of state. because YOU might get a ticket.​

 

[JoseCuervo]

CJ,
On what (FS, BLM, etc.) land is it ok to invoke "EXCEPT! for the "SOLE"purpose of retrieving big game"?

As it is not ok to do it on Federal Lands. Do that, and CJ will be looking at sharing a cell with some illegals....

Are you able to understand that the State statute does not allow you to ride ATVs (pick-ups) in areas that are closed?

 

[BuzzH]

cj,

Denial is a serious problem...

But to refresh your memory on what you said: "It has always been perfectly legal to drive "offroad" to pick up a dead critter[deer/elk/lope/etc.in AZ, most hunters use a 4x4 truck, an ATV does 1/10th of the damage or no damage at all when retrieving wild game. and thats a fact"

You said its perfectly legal to drive offroad to pick up a dead critter, you make no mention of "where its legal" and where its not, none. As a long-time person who has written, read, and comprehended the English language...please show me where you implied that ANY areas in AZ are closed to game retrieval. Therefor, any person with more than 2 firing brain cells would legitimately make the assumption that you think its OK to drive ANYWHERE to retrieve game in AZ.

Thats total BS, as per Ithacas call, the FS, BLM, and State lands of AZ all have travel restrictions where it IS not under any circumstances legal to drive off road FOR ANY REASON, including game retrieval.

I then contacted a AZGF LEO, who is a friend of mine and he told me they write tickets every year for people driving off road (even though the area may be open to off-road travel) for habitat destruction.

I think what we have here is a classic example of someone who thinks they understand the law, but have no clue. Further, I dont believe you want to know the law as you'd actually have to (heaven forbid) pack an animal out of the woods instead of driving up to it and hurling it in the back. You're flagrant disregard for the laws of your home state and your lack of knowledge regarding said laws, leads me to believe that this problem of off-road abuse is running rampant because people are just flat lazy, illiterate, and unable to comprehend simple laws.

 

[280]

for christ sake buzz please seek medical help there are many new treatments for LITTLE MANS SYNDROME, and trust me you have it

 

[Ten Bears]

I still don't see where it is out right illegal to ride ATV's off road in AZ. I see rules stating in some areas cross country riding is illegal, but that there are also trails and areas open for
ATV travel. EG/IT/BUZZ maybe you should check with the AZ fishcops and ask them about their authority on federal lands. I called one of our local trout troopers here, and he says he has authority to enforce BLM/USFS closures in state court (maybe you guys should research that?).

I see this all breaking down to a level of user envy. No where did anything say you could not use an ATV to retreive game.

 

[cjcj]

Well Buzz it is about time you told the truth, and you finally did. your right i didn`t say WHERE or WHEN it is ok to go offroad to retrieve down game [ i made a general statement] you can ASSume anything you want, and you can comprehend it [the statement]anyway you want. But you do have a problem. You would have lost that bet and you know it. and now you are trying to twist it into something else. Yes Buzz "denial" is a problem......Now Gunner/Buzz take some notes here ..I never said on BLM/F.S./ or Grand Canyon etc. But just made a SIMPLE STATEMENT OF FACT. and that fact is 100% true. Why should i have to go into "detail" when making a general statment? I have never broken the "offroad" provision, for picking up Big Game in AZ. Both of you have completely Ignored the Arizona Revised Statute [17-454] which states my facts about retrieving big game in AZ! Gunner to answer your question of where/when ????? >> state/trust land is one example . Buzz seek medical attention for [little mans disease] and get 2 opinions. Now after all of this if you still want to bet name your price. You also said you talked to your AZ G%F buddy , and the you talk Mumbo Jumbo about "habitat destruction" W.T.F. you mean you forgot to ask him about my statement? or didn`t he tell you what you wanted to hear? Did he verify what i said? Its my opinion that Buzz/Gunner have a built in "prejudice" against anyone who rides or defends someone on an ATV. Unless its a forest service/BLM employee [ who i see using Quads all of the time] Admit it Buzz.

 

[BuzzH]

cj, so now the truth comes out, you can only go off road to retrieve game on state trust lands, well not really though. Some of the state trust lands are also closed. Sure, you can whack a deer in your own front yard on your own property and drive up and throw it in the back. So, in that regard, yeah, you're right, you can drive off road on private property, just not where most of the game is found in AZ (BLM, FS, and State), and where 90% of the hunting takes place.

I think you need to look up the definition of what a "general statement" is. Also please brush up on the laws regarding game retrieval and off road rules on a majority of the huntable lands in AZ as you dont know WTF your talking about.

My buddy told me exactly what Ithacas post said, nearly word-for-word. OFF road use FOR ANY REASON, INCLUDING GAME RETRIEVAL is up to the authority of the managing land agency, simple as that. The wardens can enforce off road violations and they understand the law, unlike you. Further, even if the managing agency allows off-road atv use and you tear up the turf getting to your animal, the AZGF can and does ticket for habitat destruction.

Ten bears, call the AZGF, you're as clueless as cj....

 

[DEADI270]

________________________________________________________________________

"I think the common ground everybody agrees on is that ATVs should be limited to roads that full sized vehicles can travel on.

A bit more contention is the Designated ATV trails, and I am probably ok with them as long as they don't mess with security for game. In Idaho, the Fish and Game works with the Forest Service to close many of them from Sept. 1 to April 1, for winter security reasons. Something like that is probably fair.

But the kicker to all this is the guys on the road or on the trail that are hunting on them, and in the end, that is the behavior that gets hunting a black-eye from the outside and from the inside."
________________________________________________________________________

Yawooo!! Gunner: Im glad to see you make a statement that I can say "Amen" to, and that was not designed to stir up trouble. I couldn't agree more.

 

[cjcj]

Buzz get real and buy a clue, Lets see The G&F LEO can`t tell Delw if its OK or not to go retrieve his game [he has no authority] but he can write tickets for offroad travel, so are you saying he has one way authority? Trust me They have the authority. I just can`t let you have it "both" ways. I have won the bet right? [you have not answerd me [pay up chump]

but i give you some credit, you almost were able to tell the truth about AZ state trust lands, but not quite heh? it must be real tough for you to admit you were wrong....sad..sad...sad..

 

[Tara]

[No message]

 

[cfree]

cfree, I've hunted AZ the last 2 years for javelina and quail. I've seen atv riding happyjacks both years with bows strapped to their atv's "hunting" javelina. I've also turkey hunted the last 3 years with a buddy of mine, again, more than enough atv's to go around.

Oh, and heres a funny story about javelina and ATV "hunters". My buddy Frank and I were glassing from a main road and we'd just glassed up a herd of pigs when around the corner comes 3 happyjacks on atvs. They stop, and ask us if we've seen any pigs. We say, "nope, no pigs". One guy says, "Yeah, its been a tough year, I've put 300 miles on my atv this weekend and havent seen a single pig". HAHA, about 1/2 hour later Frank was 20 yards from 21 pigs, one of which promptly had a tag taped to his hind foot.

Thanks for your help Buzz. So you freely admit that of the few ATV's you have seen in AZ, none have done anything illegal. Unless owning one and driving it on a dirt road is illegal.

Oh, and you're wrong, AZ does have issues with ATV hunters, ask any AZGF officer or anyone who's hunted elk or deer there lately. I have several friends who have hunted 6A, 5B, and the kaibab the last few years, all have illegal atv stories to tell...

I have hunted deer, javelina and elk lately. In the last 5 years I have seen fewer than 10 ATV's. And not one of them was driving it illegally. As far as your mythical friends and game warden buddies..well..I hope they keep putting in for Kaibab and 6A like everyone else. Most, if not all, AZ hunters have much bigger issues than ATV's. Like illegal aliens, drought, watering holes and courtesy to other hunters around watering holes, forest fires, healthy forest thinning, non-resident big game quotas, predator control, nappy governor napoliano constantly trying to raid the heritage fund, and the list goes on before anyone ever mentions ATV's.

In the state of Arizona if you responsibly drive your ATV cross-country to retrieve legally downed game just about anywhere besides wilderness, quiet, and forest fire closure areas..you will not receive a ticket. That's the end of that story.

Cfree,
As evidence that it is the HUNTERS who are causing problems, I submit that the Idaho Fish and Game has developed new rules to deal with ATVs. I do not think the IDFG is progessive enough to implement the restrictions mentioned earlier PRIOR to there being a problem, so I conclude the restrictions are in REACTION to a problem.

Gunner..aka Mike Jensen? You are in favor of a pre-emptive action? No way. Sounds like Dubya is getting to you.

Del and CJ. I am sure you guys have been to Bartlett lake before. The road heading in is a disaster with all the criss crossing ATV and dirt bike trails. What percentage of those do you think are hunters? I don't hunt the most popular units so I might not see everything that other hunters see.

 

[Michaelr]

As a long-time person who has written, read, and comprehended the English language...

what the hell were ya before ya were a long time person?

probably a liberal

 

[BuzzH]

cj,

I'm not going to explain the rules to you for several reasons:

1. You wont/dont understand them.
2. You'd rather not know so you can continue to live in 1960 and continue to break the law.
3. You dont have the comprehension skills
4. You wont admit when you're wrong.
5. You dont even understand what you write.

Get it through your thick skull, in a vast majority of AZ off road travel FOR ANY REASON (oh, and just to clarify, ANY REASON, includes to retieve game) is illegal and is under the authority of the agency that owns the land.

The good thing is though, some NR illegal alien got your elk tag this year, so you wont have the opportunity to break the law while retrieving your road killed spike.

 

[Wyodeerhunter]

Interesting thread,

A lot of hunters believe that there is an exception for off road travel in areas that restrict off road travel to go retrieve down game. These same type of hunters believe it is ok to shoot a deer for their wife because she has the tag, they believe that every dead deer and elk they find is a lion kill and that predators are eating their deer and elk (and moose

).

Just because you shot an animal doesn't give you the right to drive off road where there are set restrictions. Period. End of story.

I believe there are eithical ATV riders, and I THINK I've seen a few, but hell, this is coming from someone who believes in guardian angels, lady luck and the thought that one day people could see beyond the color of someone's skin. Oh well, its hunting season dammit!

Ernesto

P.S. I think the majority of atv riders who abuse the laws are the ones that really don't care about hunting, they are the ones that pull the gun out once a year and go hunting and after fall is over they don't think about hunting season till it rolls around the next year. I believe most hunters that post on message boards take hunting a little more serious so i would go out on a limb and say that the percentage of hunters that post reguarly do not abuse atv's compared to the overall percentage of hunters that use atvs.

Good luck on your fall hunts!

 

[Wapiti Slayer]

Originally posted by Wyodeerhunter:
Interesting thread,

A lot of hunters believe that there is an exception for off road travel in areas that restrict off road travel to go retrieve down game. These same type of hunters believe it is ok to shoot a deer for their wife because she has the tag, they believe that every dead deer and elk they find is a lion kill and that predators are eating their deer and elk (and moose

).

Just because you shot an animal doesn't give you the right to drive off road where there are set restrictions. Period. End of story.

I believe there are eithical ATV riders, and I THINK I've seen a few, but hell, this is coming from someone who believes in guardian angels, lady luck and the thought that one day people could see beyond the color of someone's skin. Oh well, its hunting season dammit!

Ernesto

P.S. I think the majority of atv riders who abuse the laws are the ones that really don't care about hunting, they are the ones that pull the gun out once a year and go hunting and after fall is over they don't think about hunting season till it rolls around the next year. I believe most hunters that post on message boards take hunting a little more serious so i would go out on a limb and say that the percentage of hunters that post reguarly do not abuse atv's compared to the overall percentage of hunters that use atvs.

Good luck on your fall hunts!

 

[Wapiti Slayer]

Originally posted by Wyodeerhunter:
Interesting thread,

A lot of hunters believe that there is an exception for off road travel in areas that restrict off road travel to go retrieve down game. These same type of hunters believe it is ok to shoot a deer for their wife because she has the tag, they believe that every dead deer and elk they find is a lion kill and that predators are eating their deer and elk (and moose

).

Just because you shot an animal doesn't give you the right to drive off road where there are set restrictions. Period. End of story.

I believe there are eithical ATV riders, and I THINK I've seen a few, but hell, this is coming from someone who believes in guardian angels, lady luck and the thought that one day people could see beyond the color of someone's skin. Oh well, its hunting season dammit!

Ernesto

P.S. I think the majority of atv riders who abuse the laws are the ones that really don't care about hunting, they are the ones that pull the gun out once a year and go hunting and after fall is over they don't think about hunting season till it rolls around the next year. I believe most hunters that post on message boards take hunting a little more serious so i would go out on a limb and say that the percentage of hunters that post reguarly do not abuse atv's compared to the overall percentage of hunters that use atvs.

Good luck on your fall hunts!

Well stated! If I shoot an animal and can get my ATV close (via a approved trail) I'll drag it down to the approved trail and pack it that way. If not, I always have the pack frames! I only have 2 spots that I have to ride my ATV in because of the distance. But when I get there I go hunt on foot and don't use any trail.

[ 09-17-2004, 22:35: Message edited by: Calif. Hunter ]

 

[Ithaca 37]

"A lot of hunters believe that there is an exception for off road travel in areas that restrict off road travel to go retrieve down game."

Actually, it's just wishful thinking and they don't want to know the law.


You got any theories why ATVs are being so severely cracked down on in so many states? Is it because just a tiny minority of the ATV users break the laws?

I'm looking forward to the day when all ATVs are restricted to only roads that are used by full size vehicles. That day is coming because ATV users can't ever be trusted to stay on trails. There will always be a significant percentage of them that just can't resist the temptation to tear all over the countryside (or that think retrieving downed game is an exception to the law).

All the ATV restrictions are being brought upon the ATV users because of their own abusive behavior. They had a chance to educate and police themselves but never did anything that had any beneficial effect. Anyone who ever thru money at the Blue Ribbon Coalition might as well have flushed it down the toilet. They got suckered into supporting a front group for the ATV industry.

Now, there's no sense in gettin' pissed off at me, EG and Buzz when we tell you this. You might as well get pissed off at the truth and see how much good that does you. We've been pointing this out for years and, as usual, we have been proven right by time.

Now watch the wolf issue to see another one we're right about. Overgrazing is another one we'll be proven right on, but it's going to take longer than the wolf issue will to be obvious enough for most people to see.

[ 09-17-2004, 22:35: Message edited by: Calif. Hunter ]

 

[Wapiti Slayer]

Ithaca, I don't disagree with you! The majority are idiots who ride wherever they please and I'm 100% against that! But It pisses me off when you guys say All FATASS ATV RIDERS. I only ride mine maybe 3 or 4 times a year and leave them trailered when Hunting unless I hit the areas that are out of reach for walking(which is over 18 miles and not accessible by a truck, but ATVs can use the road.)

During the summer I'd rather hike into areas where Atvs can't ride. I love the White Clouds, Frank Church and all the upper lakes in the Sawtooths and hike the trails often! I'm glad at least in the Sawtooths there are no trails for ATVs, hopefully the same will happen in the Whiteclouds.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ernesto,

Great post, and just like your posts on the CJ Soapbox thread, you have once again shown CJ that Youth triumphs over old age......