Do you guys really believe that all ATV riders break the law?

[Nemont]

Ten, What twist was I using? This is the second time in this thread I have defined words for you. First the word poaching and now I need to define the word Analogy. I posted part of the original post.

Now using webster definition of Analogy show me the analogy in your original post. You use the words "every" and "most" but the notes say an analogy should use the words: Followed by between, to, or with; as.

I think what you used was an example rather then an Analogy.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary

Definition: \A*nal"o*gy\, n.; pl. {Analogies}. [L. analogia, Gr. ?,
fr. ?: cf. F. analogie. See {Analogous}.]
1. A resemblance of relations; an agreement or likeness
between things in some circumstances or effects, when the
things are otherwise entirely different. Thus, learning
enlightens the mind, because it is to the mind what light
is to the eye, enabling it to discover things before
hidden.

Note: Followed by between, to, or with; as, there is an
analogy between these objects, or one thing has an
analogy to or with another.

Note: Analogy is very commonly used to denote similarity or
essential resemblance; but its specific meaning is a
similarity of relations, and in this consists the
difference between the argument from example and that
from analogy. In the former, we argue from the mere
similarity of two things; in the latter, from the
similarity of their relations. --Karslake.

Ten Bears
Member
Member # 2048

Member Rated:
posted 09-27-2004 11:57
It has plenty to do with nonriders thinking that EVERY GATE means NO MOTORIZED travel, when in fact that isn't the case. I agree most every gate has a placard, but most nonriders seem to ignore that and complain that ATVs are riding on gated roads, never mind many of those roads are open to ATV travel. A designation barrier is just that, a barrier that lists accepted uses and nonaccepted uses (designates).

Now explain to me why it is twisting if I ask some ATV supporters if they see nonriders turning in riders incorrectly as an issue. I think you only get defensive because you know it isn't an issue but wish to be thought of as a victim and therefore garner public sympathy for the downtrodden ATV rider. Rather then accept that a lot of your fellow riders are ruining it for you much faster then the nonriders. They continue to provide ammunition to the Ban ATV's Movement.

Nemont

P.S. You may want to check out that little Battle of Dworshak cookout as I am sure your ATV will be handy there to help the Rebels.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Ten, you are cracking me up.... Now it is equal problem on the non-riders fault, that the Fat-Assed Crowd is breaking the law...

non-riders are equally unaware of ATV regulations as some ATV riders are (is it really that difficult to understand?),

But typically, non-riders aren't tearing up the land or breaking the law, so they really don't need to know the law.... Maybe it would be better if the Fat-Assed ATV crowd new the law, or maybe, even better, we should just not allow ATVs on MY PUBLIC LANDS!!!!

 

[Ten Bears]

But typically, non-riders aren't tearing up the land or breaking the law, so they really don't need to know the law.... Maybe it would be better if the Fat-Assed ATV crowd new the law, or maybe, even better, we should just not allow ATVs on MY PUBLIC LANDS!!!!

I beg to differ with you EG, you see it is the non-ATV riders that ARE tearing out the gates and cutting the gate locks in this area. ATV's are allowed on a majority of the roads around here, but full sized vehicles are not, and there in lies part of the problem. I never said thatnon-riders are causing riders to break the law, that came from your own twisted/clouded comprehension problem.

 

[Ten Bears]

NEMONT, I think you are having difficulty with the structure, in the event of an analogy in this instance the words EVERY (as in every gate) is not a comparative coupling, nor is the use of "most nonriders". I will make adjustments and explanations in bold.

It has plenty to do with nonriders thinking that EVERY GATE means NO MOTORIZED travel, when in fact that isn't the case. I agree most every gate has a placard as in not all gates are marked , but most nonriders as in not all nonriders make such ASSumptions seem to ignore that and complain that ATVs are riding on gated roads, never mind many of those roads are open to ATV travel. A designation barrier is just that, a barrier that lists accepted uses and nonaccepted uses (designates).

This statement is an analogy between the ASSumption of nonriders and the perception by many on board here that all ATV riders a breaking the law (clear yet). At no time did I blame nonriders for "making" riders break the law. The analogy would be that many nonrider see gates as closed to all motorized vehicles and many riders see unmarked gates as closed to all full sized vehicles. I can admit that I know that some riders do, knowingly or unknowingly, break the law at times. I know that some hunters do, knowingly or unknowingly, break laws at times. Why is it so difficult for others to understand that not all nonriders know which gated roads are open to ATV travel or not, or that some report ATV violations that weren't really violations????

NEMONT, when you cut and select from the statement you can make say what ever you'd like, but every change you make takes away from the context.

EG has yet to prove his statements earlier. Why? Because he can't. Now he must resort to puffing up his chest and blustering with twisted statements.

 

[Nemont]

Ten,
I am having no trouble with structure.

Again an analogy is

ANALOGY
Analogy is the comparison of two pairs which have the same relationship. The key is to ascertain the relationship between the first so you can choose the correct second pair. Part to whole, opposites, results of are types of relationships you should find.

Example:
hot is to cold as fire is to ice OR hot:cold::fire:ice

You are saying nonriders turning riders behind is the same problem as riders riding illegally. It has nothing to do with the education of the nonriding public.

I am ending my debate with you because you refuse to acknowledge what nearly everyone else can see. You cannot accept the fact that ATV riding is going to be further and further restricted. I don't care if you can retrieve game in Arizona, I don't care if nonriders turn in riders, I don't care how much education it would take, I don't care if ATV's are useful tools on the ranch the fact remains that they are being abused and will be restricted from more and more places.

You cannot seem to get that. ATV's are here to stay and they will continue to be a way to recreate but don't expect that the trails you enjoy today will be open in the future because the land can only take so much.

I used to support people rights to ride but after seeing the damage first hand it has to stop and stop soon. If you cannot or will not support such a position that is your right but I am willing to bet restriction will hamper the ATV riders ability to travel around the country side.

I won't post on the thread anymore.

Thanks

Nemont

 

[Ten Bears]

I'm sorry you could't see the issue as a glass half full or half empty analogy, nor could you see it as the forest was obscured by the trees.

Another point I would like to make is that ATVs are already banned in many areas, but abuse is still occurring in those areas. Who has been pushed out, the riders that would follow the rules.

Has the thought ever occured to anybody here that if you give peoeple a legitimate reason to be where they are when they see a violation/destruction, they are more likely to report it then if they don't go there? We already know that many nonriders here wont take the time to get any information, but love to whine about the problem.

I have seen areas wrecked by unresponsible riders, but I have also seen areas destroyed by nonATV recreationists too.

 

[guppie9]

Nemont -
I'm not sure if you will see this or not. I don't know if you were serious or not about not posting here. But, I will answer you anyway. I would agree with TB that inaccurate reporting of illegal ATV activity could cause a problem. HOWEVER, I think that in the grand scheme of things, it is a miniscule part of the problem.

As I have stated before, I do not use my ATV for hunting, but for recreational purposes. In Alaska, we have MANY marked trails that can be used for OHV use, be they ATV's, snowmachines, etc. Because of that, I don't see many problems up here like, apparently, are going on down south.

That aside, I still have a basic problem with banning a piece of equipment because of misuse by irresponsible people. I won't get into my whole arguement about that again.

P.S.

Maybe it would be better if the Fat-Assed ATV crowd new the law, or maybe, even better, we should just not allow ATVs on MY PUBLIC LANDS!!!!

Once again, EG, if it is YOUR land, than it is not public. If it is PUBLIC land, than it is OUR land. And I would like to ride my ATV on OUR land where I am legally allowed to do so.

 

[Ten Bears]

Well said guppie9

 

[Muledeer4me]

Well said guppie.


{"M4M and Guppie,

I am curious if you both also think a major problem with the ATV issue is that non riders are incorrectly turning in ATV users and that non riders also need to be educated about ATV's proper use? Just am trying to understand that argument and how the case would be made for it." ]

Nemont, I havent had the time to read throught all the posts here but let me make a comment on this quote of your.


I know for a fact that some non riders do not know the laws in Idaho as far as ATV use goes.
Without using names ,we had a poster on this board trying to trash ATV riders by using LEGAL picture of an ATV club doing legal trail work .
Using legal pictures to make there point that these riders were illegal and unethical .
I knew the pictures to be of a legal work day in Idaho and that group was by all means legal and doing a great job.
Remember we have seen right here how some poster bitch and whine about the LEGAL use of ATV's.
I myself have been hammered for posting legal and ethical picture's of an antelope I killed ,all because I was using an ATV that day to access my area and get back to camp .
I will posnt out that under are new ATV rules in Idaho that would still be a legal and ethical use of an ATV.

We also had a poster on this board bitch some ATV rider's messing up there hunt.
(That indeed sucks when someone is doing something illegal) but it turns out that both the ATV riders and the hunter were LEGAL and in fact the ATV riders were on an OPEN PUBLIC road.
The hunter himself was hunting close to a open road---------
Who should get the blame for the messed up hunt ?
The hunter who chose to hunt close to an open road or the ATV riders that chose to ride on the open road?


Now I know not all ATV owners or riders are playing by the rule's. Just as all hunter's are not playing by the rules ,but I see no reason to ban hunting.

I understand we have morons out on public land that we need to stop .
What I dont understand is with as many ATV's as we all see being hauled around or parked in a camp why are we not getting more tickets being passed out? Why aren't all of you taking pictures?
If all those people that hauled ATV's were indeed riding all over hells half acre those of us that wanted to could rack up picture and plate numbers on the trucks they hauled them in and it would be a piece of cake to turn them all in.


Everytime I see posters trying to place the blame on "all of them" ,it makes me think of when my son was in grade school and would tell me but "ALL of them are doing it" what can't I.
We all know that was crap ,just as I know the complants I pointed out above were crap so what are we to think?

 

[Ithaca 37]

"so what are we to think?" Here's what you can think: Flagrent abuses by fatassed ATV riders have become so prevelant that their access to public land is being shut down on a weekly basis all over the country. ATV abuse complaints are one of the major issues F&G Departments are trying to deal with all over the country. Same thing with all the other land management agencies. Organizations like the Blue Ribbon Coalition have turned out to be nothing but a front for manufacturers and have been completely ineffective at educating ATV users about not abusing public and private land.

Even posters here in SI and on the Monster Mulies BB who claim to be knowledgable about ATV regulations have spread misinformation about use of ATVs to retrieve downed game. It is NOT legal across the board, contrary to what they lead people to believe.

ATV restrictions will continue to be more severe until ATVs are much more limited than the are now. ATVs and their riders are the one issue almost all landowners and recreationists who don't use ATVs agree is the most annoying, destructive, disruptive, detrimental activity they have to deal with.

Even I am constantly surprised by how many people hate ATVs. The fatassed ATV crowd has nobody to blame but themselves. Even after all the restrictions they are seeing placed on themselves, they still are not lobbying for tougher penalties for the abusers. That tells me they are not serious about solving the problem. They talk about "education" but the problems get worse and they do nothing about it.

[ 10-11-2004, 22:28: Message edited by: Ithaca 37 ]

 

[JoseCuervo]

Well said Ithica.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Avoid the hunters, and the orange hat, go bushwhacking instead

Sunday, October 10, 2004


It’s entirely possible to spend the next month on a winding mountain road behind a large motor home, towing a trailer-load of ATVs. You’ll notice the orange flagging covering both. You’ll admire the hard-packed mud around the wheels and hanging from the mud flaps. You’ll realize, it’s hunting season.

That doesn’t mean you have to give up hiking. In fact, with all the ATV’s and motor homes, perhaps the safest place to be is in the woods, instead of on the road .

Now, I’m not making fun of hunters. After all, I am one. But sometimes, they never get off the road, so the best place to be is in the woods.

Of course, I’ll be clad in orange. It’s only smart. I’ll also be bushwacking, which is not for everyone. Other than for hunting, land use managers hope you stay on established trails because many of our national treasures lie in fragile areas. They receive tremendous human use and abuse.

There are, however, millions of acres of public property in Western Colorado where a gentle bushwhacking trip on foot will not damage the flora and fauna or create irreparable damage to the habitat.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Land Managers Launch New Off-Road Vehicle Campaign
Oct. 8, 2004
Jed Boal reporting

State and federal land managers are revving up a campaign to calm one of Utah's most divisive pastimes. A new trail for off-highway vehicles in Northern Utah gives riders miles to roam without harming the ecosystem.

Jed Boal takes us along for a ride in this Eyewitness News Extra report.

ATV's are taking off in popularity. But battles over where four-wheelers can ride are always simmering and often boil over.

We all get to enjoy public lands. State and federal resources managers must balance competing interests and enforce the rules in our pristine playgrounds.

Darin Bird/ Utah Department of Natural Resources: "OHV's now outsell motorcycles. As public land agencies, we can either prepare for the riders or clean up after the riders."

One solution: ATV trail systems like the Shoshone Trail established this summer by the Utah Department of Natural Resources and the National Forest Service.

Rob Cruz/Logan District Ranger: "A place for people to ride, and yet allows us to protect the rest of the land."

The Shoshone covers dozens of miles in varied terrain in the Monte Cristo and Bear River Ranges, some of the most magnificent wilderness in Northern Utah.

Signs show you where you are, where you can go, and a color-coding system lets you know the difficulty of the trail.

The trails were already there, now they're easy to access.

Rob Cruz/Logan District Ranger: "Now we're able to go out there and actually sign it and designate it so people know where it's proper to ride and where they shouldn't be riding."

Dale Penrod has been coming up here for years with his family.

Dale Penrod/ Trail Rider: "I've brought a few people up for the very first time, and you stop and wonder 'Can I take it or can't I?' So it's good to know where you can go."

Eric Stucki/ OHV Education Specialist, Dept. of Natural Resources: "We're trying to give them trail systems, which are multiple trails, with lots of mileage so they can go out and ride it more than once and enjoy it."

The rangers say most riders are very respectful of the rules of the trail. But, for two weeks of the year, during hunting season, they run into a few more problems.


Rob Cruz/Logan District Ranger: "Some hunters have a tendency to want to travel off trail to get that trophy animal they want to capture."

The message is simple...Protect your Priviledge...Stay on the Trail.

Many riders keep an eye on each other and focus on safety.

Eric Stucki/D.N.R. OHV Education Specialist: "They shouldn't mix alcohol and drink and drive. They need to wear the helmets when they're out there, and stay on those trails."

Darin Bird/Utah Dept. of Natural Resources, Asst. Dir.: "Nobody wants to destroy the public lands. People want to enjoy them, but enjoy them in different ways and different sports."

Land managers say communication is the key to easing the tug of war over wilderness.

The Shoshone Trail is similar to the Piute trail in central Utah.

 

[JoseCuervo]

And in Colorado, more and more restrictions being considered on the Fat-Assed ATV crowd....

Forest Service reviews policy on retrieving downed game

By By SALLY SPAULDING The Daily Sentinel
Tuesday, October 05, 2004


The Forest Service has decided to review a decade-old policy allowing retrieval of downed big game by all-terrain vehicles.

In three areas on the Grand Mesa National Forest, hunters have been allowed to retrieve downed game during big game hunting season between the hours of 10 a.m. and 2 p.m. Hunters are allowed to take their all-terrain vehicles in off-route areas of the forest.

“We’ve been doing some monitoring of the area during hunting season to see if people are complying with retrieving game during designated hours,” said Loren Paulson, district recreation manager for the Grand Valley Ranger District.

Paulson said a 1994 travel decision requires all-terrain vehicles to stay on designated routes but permits “off-route” travel only in three sites on the Grand Mesa for hunters at the specific times.

“The basic decision we’re trying to make is whether to continue to allow this special allowance for folks to travel off-route in these areas, or not at all,” Paulson said.

Steve Chapel, president of the Western Slope ATV Association, said the allowance was a mixed issue.

“Naturally the hunters would like to do it and continue to do it, but there’s a lot of abuse of the policy,” Chapel said. “There’s a lot of arguments both ways, and I’m not sure which way the service will go.”

Chapel suggested stricter penalties for hunters who abuse the rule, perhaps tying a violation to losing hunting preference points or hunting privileges administered through the Division of Wildlife.

“Most people know their chances of getting caught are slim to none because of a lack of people to enforce that rule,” Chapel said.

“You have to rely on if a person is ethical and has some responsibility. Then they’ll do what’s right. If they’re lacking in both, then they’ll do what they want.”

Public comment on the policy is being gathered by the Grand Valley Ranger District by mail at Game Retrieval Areas, Grand Valley Ranger District, 2777 Crossroads Blvd. Unit A, Grand Junction, CO 81506.

For information, call (970) 242-8211.

 

[Ithaca 37]

ATV game retrievel is going to have to be outlawed eventually everywhere. Might as well do it now.

 

[guppie9]

As an ATV owner/rider, I have no problems with either of those policies.

Something I find interesting is that the rangers in one area say that it is a small percentage of riders that are breaking the laws:

The rangers say most riders are very respectful of the rules of the trail. But, for two weeks of the year, during hunting season, they run into a few more problems.

but...in the other article, a representative of the ATV community says that there is a lot of abuse???

Steve Chapel, president of the Western Slope ATV Association, said the allowance was a mixed issue.

“Naturally the hunters would like to do it and continue to do it, but there’s a lot of abuse of the policy,” Chapel said.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Guseippie,

The representatives of the ATV community have always been very quick to throw hunters under the bus. We have posted other anti-hunting comments from the "gang that can't shoot straight, with their engine idling".

 

[Ten Bears]

It is NOT legal across the board, contrary to what they lead people to believe.

But it is not ILLEGAL across the board, contrary to what they lead people to believe either.

The representatives of the ATV community have always been very quick to throw hunters under the bus. We have posted other anti-hunting comments from the "gang that can't shoot straight, with their engine idling".

A few representatives of the hunting community have always been very quick to throw ATV riders under the bus also. The gang that couldn't shoot straight, good book.

Well said MD4M.

 

[guppie9]

So...I'm still confused. The rangers say it is a small amount of riders causing problems. And, we shouldn't believe the ATV people because they blame it all on hunters. So does that mean the rangers are right and the ATV guys are wrong. WTF is going on????????

Aw...f-it...its not worth the energy to figure this one out. I'm just gonna relax, hop on my ATV, ride out to the nearest wilderness area and run down a spotted owl. I hear they taste like chicken. If they are gonna ban ATV's like you all want, I might as well do the crime if I have to do the time.

 

[Muledeer4me]

Guppie9 ,ROFLMAO.

"WTF is going on????????"

What is going on is we have a few member's that hate ATV's or anyone that owns them .
There hate run's so deep that they don't even know when people are in agreement with some of what they post. LOL

Some people never find that balance to life.
Either there childhood was a real pisser or they took "it's all about you" in the literal sense.