De-publicize, De-glorify and De-monetize Western State Hunting

[88man]

View attachment 181063

all while driving a range rover in jackson hole and san francisco

 

[88man]

I'm sorry sir, missed the logo rule .... thought it better to right up front with my association of Mountain Pursuit as founder - I'm not hiding anything. Changed now.

I certainly understand it's your website. It's up to you if you allow a true free exchange of ideas or want an echo chamber. Financially, your best decision would be to ban me/us.

I got banned from rokslide for (1) defending fair chase, (2) advocating for 90/10 tag allocation in Wyoming, and (3) asking the Mule Deer Foundation not to sponsor Demming because he sold big mule deer location data and readily admitted to using planes for scouting. We published the entire back and forth - you can read it and judge for yourself.

Promoting other platforms? Not sure what this means, but in a nutshell, MP is fighting for the future of western-state hunting esp. for western-state resident hunters. Threats include the politics that come with a rapidly urbanizing US, a strong, smart, and sophisticated anti-hunting movement which is racking up victories and gaining momentum, deer, antelope, moose, and sheep populations in decline and far below population objectives, and an established network of G&F Commissioners, stockgrowers/ranchers, Outfitters, established hunting nonprofits, politicians and hunting industry who don't see the bigger concern and are benefiting financially from the current one.

You're smart. You know there's a problem.

I do not believe your a true fan of hunting. Your intent is anti hunting and surly to have a monetary gain and business growth from hurting the sport

 

[Lyfter1013]

Mountain Pursuit didn't develop DDD, but when it came onto our radar we saw it aligned with what we've seen and have been advocating for several years now.

The brutal truth of hunting is that animals suffer and die for the hunter's recreation. Defending this politically is difficult in any environment, but what's happening now via the industry marketing onslaught and social media is this is out there for everyone to see and for anti-hunters to take advantage of. And they are, brilliantly.

The humane society is one of the biggest, most powerful anti-hunting organizations in the US. The humane society also funds dog and cat shelters around the country where dogs and cats are euthanized regularly and by the thousands. So why doesn't the humane society post photos of piles of dead dogs and cats with smiling shelter employees, and videos of dogs and cats being euthanized? Because it's politically stupid.

But this is exactly what hunters and the hunting industry does.

From the hunting industry side - "content" is produced to sell product, memberships, subscriptions, advertising, etc. Overglorification of western-state hunting is done to lure in eastern and midwestern hunters, or new western-state residents, and get them to spend a thousand dollars on camo, a thousand dollars on a new bow or 3 thousand on a new rifle, 1-3 thousand on optics, $600 on a backpack, and on and on. It's not that complicated.

The problem is it's political suicide. Below is MP's position on DDD:


****************


Nation-wide, hunting is a dying tradition in the United States. Hunting's roots lie in rural areas and rural populations, and as the nation urbanizes, fewer young people will be introduced to hunting.

While rural America has been slowly dying, the interest in western state hunting has exploded - driven primarily by industry marketing and celebrity hunter self-promotion.

Mountain Pursuit strongly believes in the Depublicize, Deglorify and Demonitize (DDD) movement as it applies to western state hunting. Mountain Pursuit did not begin this movement, but rather found it aligns with many of the concerns and positions we’ve taken since our inception.

De-publicize, De-glorify & De-monetize Western State Hunting
Self-promoting hunters and the hunting industry leverage social media to attract eyeballs, which they quickly monetize via subscriptions, apparel and gear sales, memberships, sponsorships, etc.

Eastern and Midwestern white tail deer hunters and non-hunting newcomers to the west are the primary target audience for the hunting industry marketing and media onslaught. The aim is to extract dollars from this target audience.

Within the hunting industry, a corrupt “circle jerk” of celebrity hunters, hunting movie producers, gear/clothing manufacturers, internet hunting service companies (gohunt.com, etc.), podcasters, and approving mainstream hunting nonprofits stroke each other daily to keep content machine producing, audience growing, and money rolling in.

All hunting TV shows, movies, videos, podcasts and self-promoting celebrity hunters glorify western-state hunting. Hunting by its nature is a controversial activity and its glorified over-promotion will only bring unwanted attention and scrutiny from anti-hunters and non-hunters. This unwanted attention will ultimately increase political opposition to hunting in general, and western-state hunting in particular.

Filmed kill shots and dead animal photos are political suicide for the future of western-state hunting. Glorified, self-promoting hunting content is a direct political threat to the future of hunting in the western-state US.

Unlike the East, Western-state hunting is dependent upon hunting being allowed on federal lands - USFS and BLM. Under current law, it only takes a department rule or a Presidential Executive Order to severely restrict, or even end, hunting on federal lands. Even though the states manage the wildlife, and hunting can be a management tool, state governments cannot dictate to the federal government how to manage activity on federal land. Specifically, federal restriction on hunting on federal land happened during the Obama administration in Alaska, and is currently being proposed by the Biden administration, again in Alaska.

Hunting media increases hype and hunting pressure on western-state public lands. Self-promoting celebrity hunters and the hunting industry value money from new nonresident hunters over maintaining uncrowded, quality hunting experiences for western-state resident hunters.

Hunting at its core is about seeing, not about being seen. Cameras, microphones and film crews violate this true spirit of hunting, increase hunting pressure, and bring hunting unneeded attention and scrutiny from anti-hunters and non hunters.

Mountain Pursuit will fight to make hunting social media posting taboo and to forcefully embarrass/discourage self-promotors from hunting.

So you acknowledge that hunting is dying tradition in your post but then you complain how hunting is marketed to too many people. Did you ever think that the marketing that is done increases Hunter involvement and gets more people into hunting which in turn keeps hunting from your words becoming a dying tradition? What do you think will happen if all marketing of hunting was taken away? Hunter recruitment would go down which would in turn mean fewer hunters.

Now when you have fewer hunters and a lower hunter recruitment now it is easier for anti hunter politicians to pass laws that negatively effect hunting in America. Don’t believe me? Check out California and then come talk to me, last year or year before Bobcat hunting was banned in California if California had a higher population of hunters do you think this would have passed with all hunters calling blasting their local representatives saying they don’t want that? To take it a step further there was another attempt earlier this year to ban bear hunting all together in California. Not to mention that hunting bears with hounds was banned 5-6 years back.

Unfortunately you can’t have it both ways yea I would love for there to be less hunters that would mean more game and less crowds but when you do that it presents other problems we need to stick together as hunters not divide each other and hide like you are suggesting.

to take it a step further and I might be the minority on this one but I also don’t think we should be ashamed to post pictures just because we don’t want bad publicity. this trend that just because someone gets offended by something someone else does that doesn’t effect them which they throw a fit about and get catered to is a horrible trend in our society and goes way beyond hunting but we won’t even start to get into that..

 

[Ben Lamb]

An interesting example are the other hunting non-profit groups. This is specific to Wyoming, but in Wyoming, every G&F Commissioner each year, by state statute, gets 8 limited quota deer, antelope or elk tags to donate to a "nonprofit charitable organization" of his her/choice. The nonprofits then raffle or auction off the tags as fundraisers. Elk tags are the most valuable, and bring in $18k to $50k apiece.

Overall, hunting/sportsman nonprofits get the most tags - Wyoming Wildlife Federation, RMEF, Trout Unlimited, Muley Fanatics, Wild Sheep Foundation, Mule Deer Foundation, BHA, etc.

On the surface this would seem appropriate, but what it also does is limit any criticism these nonprofits would bring to the Commission. For example, over the past 3 years, Muley Fanatics has received over 25 donated Commissioner Tags ... which at $20K/each, conservatively, means $500,000 in funding. MFF and the other hunting nonprofits have a direct, financial interest, in not criticizing the G&F Commissioners responsible for all this organizational funding.

Issue with the Outfitters is on 90/10 allocation. We agree with their lawsuit over keeping feed grounds open.

Stockgrowers also have a financial interest in keeping as many tags available for NRs as possible - as they lease hunting rights to outfitters - or are outfitters themselves. But the Stockgrowers also opposed designation of the Wyoming Range Mule Deer and Sublette Antelope Herd migration corridors.

Direction/Tactics - we started nice - reached out repeatedly to the outfitters and stockgrowers on on 90/10, published social media guidelines for the hunting industry, published a report on Commissioner tags, etc. Didn't work. Now we're in the fight.

I don't agree. I know those folks and have worked with them, or for them, since 2002. MFF, WFF, RMEF & BHA have done tremendous work at the commission level in terms of actual, on the ground conservation work, even so far as going back to when you were in support of drilling the piss out of winter range. Those same groups were the ones to get critical migration corridor work done, then defended the pushback from the legislature.

They have good working relationships with the commission and have for generations, not because they won't hold them accountable, but because they understand the relative theory of honey & vinegar. Those licenses go to a ton of orgs, not just sportsmen's conservation groups. Your demagoguery isn't effective and in fact, I think it highlights a pretty selfish approach to hunting in general, especially when you've made it clear this is more about having space to yourself, than sharing it with anyone.



But also, in that article you talk about conservation and habitat. What have you done to work in that space other than go after NR hunters?

 

[Hydrophilic]

Within the hunting industry, a corrupt “circle jerk” of celebrity hunters, hunting movie producers, gear/clothing manufacturers, internet hunting service companies (gohunt.com, etc.), podcasters, and approving mainstream hunting nonprofits stroke each other daily to keep content machine producing, audience growing, and money rolling in.

All hunting TV shows, movies, videos, podcasts and self-promoting celebrity hunters glorify western-state hunting. Hunting by its nature is a controversial activity and its glorified over-promotion will only bring unwanted attention and scrutiny from anti-hunters and non-hunters. This unwanted attention will ultimately increase political opposition to hunting in general, and western-state hunting in particular.

Filmed kill shots and dead animal photos are political suicide for the future of western-state hunting. Glorified, self-promoting hunting content is a direct political threat to the future of hunting in the western-state US.

Unlike the East, Western-state hunting is dependent upon hunting being allowed on federal lands - USFS and BLM. Under current law, it only takes a department rule or a Presidential Executive Order to severely restrict, or even end, hunting on federal lands. Even though the states manage the wildlife, and hunting can be a management tool, state governments cannot dictate to the federal government how to manage activity on federal land. Specifically, federal restriction on hunting on federal land happened during the Obama administration in Alaska, and is currently being proposed by the Biden administration, again in Alaska.

Hunting media increases hype and hunting pressure on western-state public lands. Self-promoting celebrity hunters and the hunting industry value money from new nonresident hunters over maintaining uncrowded, quality hunting experiences for western-state resident hunters.

Hunting at its core is about seeing, not about being seen. Cameras, microphones and film crews violate this true spirit of hunting, increase hunting pressure, and bring hunting unneeded attention and scrutiny from anti-hunters and non hunters.

Mountain Pursuit will fight to make hunting social media posting taboo and to forcefully embarrass/discourage self-promotors from hunting.

I see some of your points, there is a public relations issue with the hunting community. I definitely agree with that.

I don't think you are approaching it from the correct angle, if you are indeed worried about PR. Using the 'Make Great Again' slogan, after the country just witnessed a large assault on environmental and conservation values from a politician popularizing the same slogan is questionable. At the very least you've lost half your potential audience already.

Of more importance, in my opinion, is addressing the anti-science, anti-environmental, and anti-conservation culture prevalent in hunting. It's a bad look when camo gets branded as climate change denier, a likely supporter of environmental de-regulation, predators shot on sight, deer and elk conservation is the only conservation that matters, and I believe in "science based management" except when it suggests something I don't like.

IMO I see this forum and Meateater from a different perspective. They are selling the outdoors, sure. But they are a damn good face for the hunting community. The conservation articles at meateater are wonderful and Randy has seemingly built a forum with many like minded hunters who share similar conservation and environmental ethics, and are willing to actively engage public land issues. To be blunt, other hunting forums are a cess pool of misinformation, ignorance, and basic science denial from my experience. If I was to try and convince a non-hunter or anti-hunter that good hunters exist, I would show them parts of this forum.

Hunters are going to get steam-rolled if they don't get their act together, kill shots on social media is only the tip of the iceberg.

 

[DouglasR]

View attachment 181082

How can you be so old and greedy and woke at the same time tho?

 

[JLS]

Can I get this in a NR version?

 

[BuzzH]

Complain about Rob all you want...he's currently busy testifying at the WYGF commission meeting.

 

[JLS]

Complain about Rob all you want...he's currently busy testifying at the WYGF commission meeting.

Good for him. I can align 100% with some of his thoughts. Some, not a chance. I applaud him for being a vocal advocate, even if he doesn’t see the glass house he’s living in.

 

[BuzzH]

Good for him. I can align 100% with some of his thoughts. Some, not a chance. I applaud him for being a vocal advocate, even if he doesn’t see the glass house he’s living in.

Yeah, I know we all want active engagement, the commission wants us to engage, the Department wants engagement, we say we want differing opinions...then they don't like it when we do unless its something they agree with.

Funny...in a not very funny way.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Pick any topic you wish and I generally dislike the "not in my backyard" world view. "I am already here and happy, so you need to stay away so I don't face change."

(@wllm1313 sorry, that's as legal as I need to get to dismiss this group)

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Complain about Rob all you want...he's currently busy testifying at the WYGF commission meeting.

About?

 

[mtnprst]

So you acknowledge that hunting is dying tradition in your post but then you complain how hunting is marketed to too many people. Did you ever think that the marketing that is done increases Hunter involvement and gets more people into hunting which in turn keeps hunting from your words becoming a dying tradition? What do you think will happen if all marketing of hunting was taken away? Hunter recruitment would go down which would in turn mean fewer hunters.

Now when you have fewer hunters and a lower hunter recruitment now it is easier for anti hunter politicians to pass laws that negatively effect hunting in America. Don’t believe me? Check out California and then come talk to me, last year or year before Bobcat hunting was banned in California if California had a higher population of hunters do you think this would have passed with all hunters calling blasting their local representatives saying they don’t want that? To take it a step further there was another attempt earlier this year to ban bear hunting all together in California. Not to mention that hunting bears with hounds was banned 5-6 years back.

Unfortunately you can’t have it both ways yea I would love for there to be less hunters that would mean more game and less crowds but when you do that it presents other problems we need to stick together as hunters not divide each other and hide like you are suggesting.

to take it a step further and I might be the minority on this one but I also don’t think we should be ashamed to post pictures just because we don’t want bad publicity. this trend that just because someone gets offended by something someone else does that doesn’t effect them which they throw a fit about and get catered to is a horrible trend in our society and goes way beyond hunting but we won’t even start to get into that..

We believe the political damage from industry kill shots and dead animal photos far outweighs the political gains from any new hunters recruited in terms of actual votes to preserve hunting. There is no comparison.

You're California example is great - and demonstrates how easy it is for the anti-hunting movement to campaign against hunting. They are testing and learning from efforts and victories to limit predator hunting and will eventually turn to ungulates. Again, most non hunters currently support hunting as long as it's Fair Chase, and the hunter eats what he kills. Predator hunting is an easy target for anti-hunters ... bear baiting violates Fair Chase and no-one eats bobcat.

Dividing hunters?
The self-promoting hunters and hunting industry marketing is producing this stuff to increase audience size which they hope monetize through marketing, product sales, subscriptions, etc. They are not doing it to recruit new hunters. Their interest in new hunters is focused on product sales, not pro-hunting votes.

I would submit that the self-promoting hunters and the hunting industry marketing is choosing short-term financial gain over the long term future of hunting.

In this way, self-promoting hunters and hunting industry marketing are the friends of our enemies - the anti-hunting movement - and our direct political opponents.

 

[DouglasR]

Pick any topic you wish and I generally dislike the "not in my backyard" world view. "I am already here and happy, so you need to stay away so I don't face change."

(@wllm1313 sorry, that's as legal as I need to get to dismiss this group)

Taking a little time off to relax after the big win at work yesterday, Steve?

 

[BucksnDucks]

My hope for discussions about hunting is as Randy puts it "I supported the DDD idea when Matt Rinella brought it forward. I think it is an interesting discussion and causes people to think about what they are doing and their motivations.
My concern is I see the hunting community fall into a tribalism mode where we are divided just as the anti hunting groups want us. The folks that wish to abolish hunting and trapping work diligently to chip away at the fringes with an overall goal of divide and conquer.

 

[mtnprst]

Complain about Rob all you want...he's currently busy testifying at the WYGF commission meeting.

Buzz was right there before me. But .... another loss for resident hunters ....

 

[Deleted member 18333]

Buzz was right there before me. But .... another loss for resident hunters ....

One shot numbers approved?

 

[Hunt West]

About?

one shot

 

[Hunt West]

One shot somehow clogs the drain after circling it for a couple years.....

 

[BuzzH]

Buzz was right there before me. But .... another loss for resident hunters ....

...and NR hunters.