Corner Crossing

[mtmuley]

If it isn't such a big deal In Montana, hop the corner and hunt. mtmuley

 

[Bighollow]

In Montana Code, there is a distinction between trespass when it comes to hunting vs non-hunting users. All hunting requires permission from the landowner. Non-hunting users may enter or cross non-posted private land on foot, though obtaining permission is recommended.


Certainly not one that puts the sole cost of such access on hunters, to start. A legislative approach that gives as much weight to public landowner desires as to private landowner desires would be preferable. After all, if there are four parcels at a corner, and half of those corners belong to me (Jane Public landowner), why should I not get equal consideration in deciding how access at that corner works? Maybe too idealistic, but seems only fair.

Yes, I agree all parties using public lands should share the costs whether hunting, hiking, rockhounding, photography etc. If 100,000 hunters plus another 50,000 other users paid $50 per year to use public lands like a Conservation stamp access this could generate a great deal of revenue. Add this to Federal and state monies and we could buy a lot of easements.

” After all, if there are four parcels at a corner, and half of those corners belong to me (Jane Public landowner),”. I can see you don’t understand Geometry well when it comes to a point with corner crossing.

 

[Bighollow]

So what is the main issue preventing this…aside from wealthy landowners not wanting things to change? I understand that it’s not a simple issue but I feel like we have the technology to solve this problem. I’m sure a lot of politicians don’t want things changed either. I actually emailed a certain MT rep who’s been mentioned in this thread about this issue when it came up several years ago. I was very careful to be respectful and classy about it. His response was not informative and he was basically a condescending p*ick. But after talking with some locals it sounds like that’s the norm for that family.

From the Garmin website on GPS accuracy. Garmin® GPS receivers are accurate to within 15 meters (49 feet) 95% of the time. Generally, users will see accuracy within 5 to 10 meters (16 to 33 feet) under normal conditions. If you can’t find a corner pin where is the actual corner you stepped over and even if you did is that the actual de facto corner?

We also know because of the Earth’s curvature some of the square mile sections of land don’t actually touch at the corner. Some sections have gaps of hundreds of feet and don’t actually touch at the corners as 2 dimensional maps show. Many of the 19th century surveys with corner markets from the 1860s PLSS Railroad plats were done with Gross surveying errors and even fraudulent land grab surveys. Most of the survey corner pins I have actually found were done with surveys completed in the 1950s and 1960s so well before GPS days and could be off by hundreds of feet if not acres of land.

Many use software from mapping companies which rely on US Topo maps. US Topo maps are not legal documents and the PLSS (Public land Survey System representation on them is not considered legally authoritative according to the USGS.

 

[VikingsGuy]

What would you pay for the loss of the landowner’s property?

Like I said, the fair market value of a pedestrian easement across a 3ft wide corner - a value under SCOTUS rules that cannot consider the value an owner could derive from preventing access to the relevant federal land - let’s round up and call it $1 for each corner.

 

[Hunting Wife]

I can see you don’t understand Geometry well when it comes to a point with corner crossing.

No need to be a dick, though expected based on your behavior under what I presume was your previous user name. My geometry is just fine. What I don’t understand is who exactly you are lobbying for? Clearly you are hyper concerned about making sure landowners with stables of highly competent attorneys get paid. You work for UPOM? Maybe it’s PERC? Either way, if you were again hoping to come on a public lands forum and somehow garner support from all of us public land rabble to provide yet another revenue stream for the landed gentry, you’re clearly the one who has trouble understanding.

I’m out.

 

[Bighollow]

No need to be a dick, though expected based on your behavior under what I presume was your previous user name. My geometry is just fine. What I don’t understand is who exactly you are lobbying for? Clearly you are hyper concerned about making sure landowners with stables of highly competent attorneys get paid. You work for UPOM? Maybe it’s PERC? Either way, if you were again hoping to come on a public lands forum and somehow garner support from all of us public land rabble to provide yet another revenue stream for the landed gentry, you’re clearly the one who has trouble understanding.

I’m out.

“No need to be a dick,”. Thank you for the kind words, says volumes about your character, or lack thereof.

 

[Hunting Wife]

“No need to be a dick,”. Thank you for the kind words, says volumes about your character, or lack thereof.

Hmmm, I must be hitting close to home if that’s all you got. Sorry if the truth hurts

 

[VikingsGuy]

“No need to be a dick,”. Thank you for the kind words, says volumes about your character, or lack thereof.

Pretty sure the users of this forum know who has high character - you or @Hunting Wife.

 

[Dave N]

Wonder if his(?) handle refers to his head?

 

[TheJason]

“No need to be a dick,”. Thank you for the kind words, says volumes about your character, or lack thereof.

You never did answer if you got paroled or just found a way to get in with a different user name.

 

[rwc101]

 

[Bighollow]

Pretty sure the users of this forum know who has high character - you or @Hunting Wife.

Yeah, calling people a “Dick” is so classy, and shows such character.

 

[Bighollow]

Like I said, the fair market value of a pedestrian easement across a 3ft wide corner - a value under SCOTUS rules that cannot consider the value an owner could derive from preventing access to the relevant federal land - let’s round up and call it $1 for each corner.

I’m sure that will be viewed as a win- win and a consensus builder for landowners. No wonder we still have 16 Million acres landlocked in the U.S.

 

[MNElkNut]

One might want to make sure their geometry is correct before they go after HuntingWife's geometry which IS correct.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I’m sure that will be viewed as a win- win and a consensus builder for landowners.

How much did they get paid when the SCOTUS flipped the rules on "airspace ownership" in 1946 - $0. How much did they get paid with all the environmental regulations and other government land use restrictions over the last 40 years - $0. When the political wind shifts they will be standing out in the cold if they don't start being reasonable. Given the population of MT & WY landowners vs the rest of the US population, we can play the long game. How about $500 per corner - it might end up being a windfall vs their other options (especially when the senate filibuster inevitably goes away and small state senators lose the right to stiff-arm 80% of the country's population) do you like that number better?

 

[VikingsGuy]

Yeah, calling people a “Dick” is so classy, and shows such character.View attachment 196052

Thanks for including the selfie - now we can place a face with your moniker

 

[Bighollow]

How much did they get paid when the SCOTUS flipped the rules on "airspace ownership" in 1946 - $0. How much did they get paid with all the environmental regulations and other government land use restrictions over the last 40 years - $0. When the political wind shifts they will be standing out in the cold if they don't start being reasonable. Given the population of MT & WY landowners vs the rest of the US population, we can play the long game. How about $500 per corner - it might end up being a windfall vs their other options (especially when the senate filibuster inevitably goes away and small state senators lose the right to stiff-arm 80% of the country's population) do you like that number better?

I proposed $10,000 but even that will be low for many but I think a reasonable compromise. Look for volunteers of course at first, then go after those big parcels with just one corner to cross. Heaven to Hell ownership of land goes a long ways back before 1946.

Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_est_solum,_eius_est_usque_ad_coelum_et_ad_inferos​

 

[Bighollow]

Thanks for including the selfie - now we can place a face with your moniker

Here is that one I took of you. I surely associate it with you.

 

[VikingsGuy]

I proposed $10,000 but even that will be low for many but I think a reasonable compromise. Look for volunteers of course at first, then go after those big parcels with just one corner to cross. Heaven to Hell ownership of land goes a long ways back before 1946.

Cuius est solum, eius est usque ad coelum et ad inferos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_est_solum,_eius_est_usque_ad_coelum_et_ad_inferos​

You completely misread my remark - read earlier in the thread when ad coelum was discussed - in 1946 SCOTUS ended as anachronistic this thousand-year-old principle in 1946 when it was raised by landowners who didn't like planes flying overhead - they want $5,000 in 1946 dollars for that and they got $0.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Here is that one I took of you. I surely associate it with you.View attachment 196055

So, remind me again about your character concerns a few posts earlier?