Corner Crossing - Where to go from here?

[Mudranger1]

Mudranger1---Where did you come up with this idea of us walking on private property? When you get to a corner you are merely stepping from one piece of property onto the other without touching the other two adjacent pieces. Incidentally, I don't know what GPS you are using to be off 30 yards because most of them now are accurate within 10-12 feet, especially if you have WAAS enabled. The Garmin Legend HCx I just bought last summer for $153 was easily inside those distances every time I found a corner or section pin during my trip to Wyoming last Fall.

Now you law abiding upstanding citizen is going to cross there. But the 10+ million people who want to use a crossbow with lighted nocks in the archery season will go where ever they please because they are unethical or just clueless according to Montana residents

 

[pointingdogsrule]

Mudranger1---Where did you come up with this idea of us walking on private property? When you get to a corner you are merely stepping from one piece of property onto the other without touching the other two adjacent pieces. Incidentally, I don't know what GPS you are using to be off 30 yards because most of them now are accurate within 10-12 feet, especially if you have WAAS enabled. The Garmin Legend HCx I just bought last summer for $153 was easily inside those distances every time I found a corner or section pin during my trip to Wyoming last Fall.

So is 10-12 feet "close enough" when crossing a corner that is not marked??

good luck to all
the dog

 

[spook12]

....

 

[shoots-straight]

SS are you referring to something like a walk-over bridge? that to me would probably be the best solution to all this

Bingo! about 3' of flat bridge on top.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

"So is 10-12 feet "close enough" when crossing a corner that is not marked??"

For me the answer is no, not if I can't find an actual corner marker. However, if you did cross using your GPS to try and be legal, I think a landowner would be hard pressed to win a case in court when he doesn't even know where the corner is himself. The best way to go is to ask the County Prosecutor in the county you are going to hunt if he would prosecute that type of case and act accordingly. A rancher tried to have our group ticketed for alleged trespassing several years ago in Wyoming and it didn't even involve corner crossing. He maintained we were on his deeded property when we were actually on BLM land the entire morning. He called the County Sheriff and the area Game Warden, who met us at our truck when we came in fromthe morning hunt. The GW, who I knew pretty well, would not issue a ticket based on the map and GPS I had to show where we were. The lady Deputy stated she was going to issue one based on the word of the rancher and I told her she was making a big mistake if she did because I would fight it to the max. She finally decided she would wait until she talked with the Sheriff himself. A day later I went to the county seat and talked to the County Prosecutor and discussed the situation with him. He stated he would talk with the Sheriff because there was no way he would prosecute us if we were issued a ticket and entered a not guilty plea because we had maps and GPS trying to stay legal and there were no signs or boundary fences to even indicate where the private property was located.

 

[mtmuley]

I'm fully behind this bill, and want it to pass in a bad way but..... if we need these access points to have ladders and bridges to get accross, who then pays for it? I know FWP has no budget for it. I bet landowners won't foot the bill. Almost need to specify what kind of corner is fit to cross. And if a problem arises, is it really worth it if you end up in court? mtmuley

 

[sweetnectar]

My land status is that I own a city lot. My family has a ranch with no checkerboard public land.
I'm not sure how a private property right is not taken if you tell a land owner they can't put a fence on their own land. If a wheat farmer wants to stop planting wheat and plant every square inch of his land with fence posts that should be his uninfringed right. Would that alone constitute a takings and therefore be lost in court?

So if you come to a corner and there is a fence with no fence ladder then cornerhoppers will need this video to help them.
http://youtu.be/8wg2A5KgxRM

 

[cowboy]

And if a problem arises, is it really worth it if you end up in court? mtmuley

YES - at this point I see no other way to resolve this short of the legal system doing it's thing and determine the legality of this issue.

 

[mtmuley]

cowboy, I agree the legal system needs to sort out the issue of corner access. My statement was aimed at the "what if" gray area access points if indeed the bill passes. A survey pin is one thing, but they aren't everywhere. mtmuley

 

[cowboy]

cowboy, I agree the legal system needs to sort out the issue of corner access. My statement was aimed at the "what if" gray area access points if indeed the bill passes. A survey pin is one thing, but they aren't everywhere. mtmuley

I'm going to guess the water is going to get tested this fall, one way or the other. If nothing else, this proposed bill has really really made people aware that there is so much grey area in holding someone out of crossing from public to public that it's dang near a sure bet that someone will test it.

Each one of us will have to decide on our own "if it's worth it"

I will say that I'd be the first one to donate to that said persons legal fees if the access was done with "true corner-corner public" ground.

Bottom line is - private land owners have their rights - but do they over ride the rights of public land owners.

This ain't that complicated and we can come up with a gazillion what ifs, private land owners are holding out the public from accessing from other public land.

As far as survey pins not being everywhere - big deal - if the land owner wants to press charges let him prove you were illegal. Last I heard was you were innocent until proven guilty in this country.

Somebody is gonna test it now that it has gotten so much publicity.

 

[Mudranger1]

Bingo! about 3' of flat bridge on top.

I'm good with that 100%

Top gun. My point is not everyone has your fancy $153 GPS . My garmin etrex couldn't put you on an exact spot unless you were in a wide open field/open water. Same goes for my garmin 76. And my second point was that the huntinggps maps I have on my unit aren't as accurate as some would think. Great tool but not a precise tool I have an email response I got back from them regarding this that I will try and find. All is fine with a marked corner but its the unmarked ones that concerns me. And yea you could probably get by 100% of the time but that doesn't make it right according to your interstate parking responses

 

[BuzzH]

Some people are making this thing wayyyyy more complicated than it has to be.

In the case of fences, all the corner hopping law would have to state is that those accessing public lands via corner hopping, should do so in the least intrusive route. No different than the stream access law in Montana, that says its fine to go around barriers to the ordinary high water mark in the shortest and least intrusive route possible.

In the case of unmarked corners, there should be cooperation between sportsmen and landowners on those. The landowners and sportsmen need to get together and agree on where the theoretical corner is and mark it somehow. I'm not sure which party should be held liable or expected to survey in the pin, and I think that will be a definite problem. IMO, since the private landowner is the one worrying about suffering damage if the exact pin isnt there, they have a much larger vested interest to locate the exact corner. I wouldnt be opposed to a cost-sharing on surveying in the corners between the landowners and sportsmen either.

I think if both parties use their noggin's, the problems could be largely avoided...thats a big "if"...

 

[Lawnboy]

Might be easier to leave a pole vault at each corner. When you vault across simply lean it against the fence for the next dude

 

[spook12]

Sounds like you nailed it Buzz. I would also add that it could be written into the law that when the name on the title changes a survey must be done and paid for by the new title holder.This would over time put property lines in their proper place instead of sticking with ''Historical'' lines.

I would also add that if the private land owner doesn't agree with the public agencies location of of the line, that it should fall to the land owner to have the line surveyed.

 

[mtmuley]

As I said, I'm all for this. I researched the corner hopping thing almost 15 years ago trying to determine an access point to some landlocked State. If the bill passes, I'm hopping. Until it does, I'm not gonna "test the waters". I hope landowners would be cooperative, but I think it may be the exception and not the rule. mtmuley

 

[mtmiller]

I hope landowners would be cooperative, but I think it may be the exception and not the rule. mtmuley

If they aren't allowing access now why would they be cooperative in the future?

 

[Straight Arrow]

All of this discussion and conjecture about identifying, marking, constructing, and determining who is responsible for corners is great .... but to no avail if this bill does not move forward.

Don't forget to use some of your writing and persuasion skills to communicate with your representative in the Montana House to get a vote to blast this bill out of committee onto the House floor.

At this point you don't really need to "get into the weeds" about all those details ... just make sure that you make a strong point about public access to public lands.

 

[BRI]

In the case of unmarked corners, there should be cooperation between sportsmen and landowners on those. The landowners and sportsmen need to get together and agree on where the theoretical corner is and mark it somehow. I'm not sure which party should be held liable or expected to survey in the pin, and I think that will be a definite problem. IMO, since the private landowner is the one worrying about suffering damage if the exact pin isnt there, they have a much larger vested interest to locate the exact corner. I wouldnt be opposed to a cost-sharing on surveying in the corners between the landowners and sportsmen either.

To be exact, having a licensed surveyor locate corners is going to be costly. A few years ago I was doing some property line location for work. I had every corner but one. It should have been a relatively easy job for a licensed surveyor to locate that corner. The quotes I got were several thousand dollars just to locate that one easy corner.

 

[Topgun 30-06]

Yep, it's not cheap when you're talking about a big area that they have to go to and then hone down to one little corner spot. That's exactly why IMO if the owner is so worried about a person walking on his property a few feet when the corner hasn't been determined by a legal survey marker that it should be up to him to have it surveyed and marked. The biggy is it's not because of that, but rather that's the excuse they use when the main reason is that they want to keep that landlocked public land all to themselves. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out!

 

[ingomar]

The rally time has been changed to 2 pm on the North side of the Capital on the 18th. The lady at General Services had missed a previously scheduled rally for 10:30 on the
18th.

We are asking that everyone arrive by 12:15 so that they can be in the House Gallery for the start of the House session. Do not know exactly what time the Blast vote will be taken.

Rally will take place as soon as the House adjourns.

We are asking everyone to wear their hunter orange vest so the Legislators know that we support the bill.