College costs

[BuzzH]

1. You can't study law or medicine as an undergrad, and while there are pre-reqs MD and JD programs accept any undergrad major.

2. Is the assumption you're getting paid back? Are you stating you want a return on your 'investment' because if not isn't an education just a gift and then does it matter what they do with said gift?

If your child is an engineer do they pay you back more than if they are middle management at a paper company.

What's the promote structure you got set up with your kids, some sort of waterfall for every 100k they earn... like if they earn 50k they have to pay back 100% but if they earn 300k they have to pay you back 200%?




But like for the experience of a sheep hunt those are all fine?

Every once in a while I think you're actually a decent guy, the other 75% of the time nothing but an entitled ass.

If my Dad and Mom would have wanted to refinance the house they bought with money they earned to go on a fancy vacation or hunt a grand slam of sheep that's fine. They didn't get any help from anyone and neither went to college. They did work hard to afford to raise 2 boys, provide a roof over our heads and have enough extra to take us fishing, hunting, and camping and maybe a "real" vacation once every 4-5 years. So, if they want the "experience" as you put it of hunting a sheep and to do it refinance with their money...go for it. But there was NO way I would ever allow them to do it to pay for my College or something I wanted to do...no way.

Even if my parents would have offered to pay for my College education, I would have refused to let them pay. Just because your parents offer, doesn't mean you have to take the money.

I feel guilty enough thinking about what it cost them to just provide what they did, can't even imagine what it would be like if they had paid for my college too. My wife had 2 college loans when we got married and her Parents offered to pay for them. We didn't allow that to happen, I/We pay our own freight.

For the record, I did go on a sheep hunt, by working my way through College, paying for every last penny of it...you know, the old fashioned way of getting the "college experience".

Working 500 hours over-time the year I graduated College with a bend in my back, sucking smoke and dust running a pulaski to pay for both.

I don't want to inherit a single penny from my parents, just like I didn't want or expect them to pay for my College...I hope the last check I write from their account to the morgue to cover the last ones funeral, bounces like a rubber ball.

I guess my "college experience" was just based on a much different standard other than getting a handout.

This thread truly has left me disgusted, disappointed and in disbelief all at the same time...and that doesn't happen often as I've seen a fair bit on my 53 laps around the Sun.

 

[Deleted member 18333]

If I were your kid I tell you your being manipulative. You clearly are concerned about being able to exert control over another person, thanks for the offer but keep your money.

If you were my kid I'd tell you to stop asking to borrow your moms minivan. You're a grown man for Christs sake!

TBH, you are not far off on the exert control thing on my kids. Kind of always thought that was a big part of being a parent. They can ignore it, they have freewill.

 

[BuzzH]

If I were your kid I tell you your being manipulative. You clearly are concerned about being able to exert control over another person, thanks for the offer but keep your money.

Then I'd take my Russian lit degree and get a job with Mckinsey, or get my school paid for by the military/state department or work for the FBI, Russian is a Critical Language and all military branches + alphabet agencies are looking for speakers... or apply to medical or law school.

After that, I pick you out a nice nursing home and say, "you taught me a valuable lesson, you taught me that if I'm interested in something I should go for it regardless of what anyone else thinks."

Always a good idea to question the person paying your way...

Tell the guy signing your paycheck they're being "manipulative" by making you do things the way they want it done.

 

[DouglasR]

Every once in a while I think you're actually a decent guy, the other 75% of the time nothing but an entitled ass.

If my Dad and Mom would have wanted to refinance the house they bought with money they earned to go on a fancy vacation or hunt a grand slam of sheep that's fine. They didn't get any help from anyone and neither went to college. They did work hard to afford to raise 2 boys, provide a roof over our heads and have enough extra to take us fishing, hunting, and camping and maybe a "real" vacation once every 4-5 years. So, if they want the "experience" as you put it of hunting a sheep and to do it refinance with their money...go for it. But there was NO way I would ever allow them to do it to pay for my College or something I wanted to do...no way.

Even if my parents would have offered to pay for my College education, I would have refused to let them pay. Just because your parents offer, doesn't mean you have to take the money.

I feel guilty enough thinking about what it cost them to just provide what they did, can't even imagine what it would be like if they had paid for my college too. My wife had 2 college loans when we got married and her Parents offered to pay for them. We didn't allow that to happen, I/We pay our own freight.

For the record, I did go on a sheep hunt, by working my way through College, paying for every last penny of it...you know, the old fashioned way of getting the "college experience".

Working 500 hours over-time the year I graduated College with a bend in my back, sucking smoke and dust running a pulaski to pay for both.

I don't want to inherit a single penny from my parents, just like I didn't want or expect them to pay for my College...I hope the last check I write from their account to the morgue to cover the last ones funeral, bounces like a rubber ball.

I guess my "college experience" was just based on a much different standard other than getting a handout.

This thread truly has left me disgusted, disappointed and in disbelief all at the same time...and that doesn't happen often as I've seen a fair bit on my 53 laps around the Sun.

@wllm1313 looks down his nose at TJ and dexters caboose, but when I see it I think
“Some day ”

 

[TheJason]

I respect that you don't see a value in it, I conversely value it as and end unto itself.

Completely fair.

I agree it's not black and white, and I think while ROI is a factor that is often brought up with education it is but one factor. Similarly, I don't think you can boil military service down to ROI.

Further there are a number of key professions that solely exist because folks are willing to do them in spite of their negative ROI. Teachers, clergy, social work, etc.

Absolutely. See my comments about under earning.

That said, this is where kids need to be careful. Incurring 60k-90k in student debt for the college experience, when you’ll be making peanuts is not good financial sense.

We’ve lived a somewhat spartan life over the years, I can’t imagine doing it with lots of student debt to pay off along the way.

 

[DouglasR]

Would you rather have family in the trades or be a third generation college graduate?

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Every once in a while I think you're actually a decent guy, the other 75% of the time nothing but an entitled ass.

I know you're a decent guy from reading 5 years of posts but god damn if from time to time aren't you a self righteous SOB.

My family values education as a tradition, in much the same way your family values some of your strongly held traditions. My parents paid for my college... I also had a 25k scholarship, and took off my first semester and made 17k to pay for expenses, and then was an RA and worked as a ski instructor and a bus driver, and a TA while in school and worked then worked every summer.

I'm paying for my kids, that's the social contract in my family, you pass it along. You don't have to get it, and you can call it entitlement or whatever you want. My great grandmother escaped a poor abusive family in Shreveport and her dream was for her kids and grandkids to go to school and we have. She said it was her biggest accomplishment, and it has been a core family value ever since.

Always a good idea to question the person paying your way...

Tell the guy signing your paycheck they're being "manipulative" by making you do things the way they want it done.

Free country, well within your right to quit and start your own company if you think it can be done better or find employment elsewhere.

 

[BuzzH]

I know you're a decent guy from reading 5 years of posts but god damn if from time to time aren't you a self righteous SOB.

My family values education as a tradition, in much the same way your family values some of your strongly held traditions. My parents paid for my college... I also had a 25k scholarship, and took off my first semester and made 17k to pay for expenses, and then was an RA and worked as a ski instructor and a bus driver, and a TA while in school and worked then worked every summer.

I'm paying for my kids, that's the social contract in my family, you pass it along. You don't have to get it, and you can call it entitlement or whatever you want. My great grandmother escaped a poor abusive family in Shreveport and her dream was for her kids and grandkids to go to school and we have. She said it was her biggest accomplishment, and it has been a core family value ever since.



Free country, well within your right to quit and start your own company if you think it can be done better or find employment elsewhere.

Not self righteous, self made...big difference and obviously YMV.

I agree, free country and if you don't like the way the guy signing your pay checks or paying your way through college "manipulates" you...go for it. Do it on your own with your own money and risking your own assets to get the "experience" you desire.

 

[Irrelevant]

I'm paying for my kids, that's the social contract in my family, you pass it along. You don't have to get it, and you can call it entitlement or whatever you want. My great grandmother escaped a poor abusive family in Shreveport and her dream was for her kids and grandkids to go to school and we have. She said it was her biggest accomplishment, and it has been a core family value ever since.

The idea that you can work your ass off and save money and go and a sheep hunt while patting yourself on the back the whole time for living the American drean but heaven forbid someone else works their ass off and wants to pay for their kids education...

Hypocrisy with a side of delusion.

BTW, I really like the concept of the social contract in the family. We have a similar one. You can either hit restart on every generation or you pay it forward and allow your hard work to snowball. It's kinda like compound interest.

 

[Nameless Range]

Some more random thoughts:

When we talk about ROI: Return does not necessarily solely equal financial return. Return could be experiences, friendships, confidence....That said, a variable in ROI for 99% of potential college students is necessarily financial burden and future. As a 37 year old still paying on loans I signed as a 19 year old adult it stings. My sole responsibility, but I will make my children more aware of how much that can suck than I was.

I think one of things that makes college so tough to value, is the changing nature of the professional world in some sectors. 10 years ago when I started in IT, I was surrounded by people with computer science degrees. Now, there are just as many autodidacts with associates degrees making 6 figures in the sector as traditional 4 year students or folks with masters degrees. On hiring committees, of which I have been on many, we value degrees less and less.

People are variable too. I was soured on college. A big part of that was learning more about my field in books and blogs and goofing off in my free time than I was in the classroom. Is the college to blame for that? I don't know. The world is full of free education for those willing to work for it.

Someone mentioned skin in the game. I had skin in the game immediately, but it was skin I was obligated to give at some point in the future. I had yet to feel my flesh removed. This is how the system is designed and how highschoolers are encouraged to move forward. When I struggled and faltered, and finally had to sacrifice blood in real-time, my perspective changed. So I guess I would definitely say, skin in the game is a good idea, as long as it means skin in the now.

 

[Marshian]

One side point regarding majoring in Russian Lit or whatever and then always could go to med school. That’s true but somewhat difficult as med schools require certain prerequisite classes such as organic chemistry and a year of physics amongst others. A science major, especially chemistry and biology, would take these as part of their major and them be able to choose some easier classes on the side to get the required credits. The Russian Lit major would be taking these very demanding classes on the side and in no relation to their major. In my med school graduating class, at least 3/4 of the students had bachelor of science based degrees. Way more than BA ones. Can’t speak to what prereqs are required for law school although I’m sure there are some.

 

[BuzzH]

The idea that you can work your ass off and save money and go and a sheep hunt while patting yourself on the back the whole time for living the American drean but heaven forbid someone else works their ass off and wants to pay for their kids education...

Hypocrisy with a side of delusion.

BTW, I really like the concept of the social contract in the family. We have a similar one. You can either hit restart on every generation or you pay it forward and allow your hard work to snowball. It's kinda like compound interest.

Some get college diplomas and sheep hunts...by working their ass off on their own.

I know, tough for a vast majority to savvy that...

 

[Dakotakid]

Realizing there are MANY variables, just trying to get a sense for what is a good average target balance in 529 plans for out of state college tuition 4 to 6 years out from now. Looking for real world responses to this problem - what are people paying? I have two kids, very good students, non-athletes, who likely will go out of state to a 4-year public university. We have saved a modest amount for each child so far and feel extremely blessed to have been able to do that, but suspect we are well below what is "recommended" by the "experts". Based on our combined family income, we may not be eligible for a great deal of needs-based support (even though cost of living in our region is at the upper end of the spectrum). The general internet is not confidence inspiring (all over the map) and people I know are so damn tight lipped these days with their salary, debt, expenses , etc in order to perpetuate their facebook "best life" image.... hard to get the straight skinny on what is happening to real people

Returning back to the question:

I don’t think an out of state school is a great investment.

A degree from instate is as valuable or more valuable, if the child intends to work in the home state. Connections matter.

An investment in housing in a college town may be worth while. I had a coworker that sent his children through MSU in Bozeman. He bought a house rented it until his kids went to school, then sold after. Housing is as expensive as tuition.

Critical evaluation should be had on whether college is right. Some it is a pig and a poke, for some it offers opportunity. The answer is not the same for everyone or every child.

 

[RobG]

It's commendable when someone works their ass off to put themselves through college, but unless you come out of the womb swinging a Pulaski to earn your diapers you aren't self made.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

Some get college diplomas and sheep hunts...by working their ass off on their own.

Missing the point.

The idea that you can work your ass off and save money and go and a sheep hunt while patting yourself on the back the whole time for living the American drean but heaven forbid someone else works their ass off and wants to pay for their kids education...

It's you paying for your sheep hunt versus you paying for someone else's college.

 

[RobG]

Some more random thoughts:

When we talk about ROI: Return does not necessarily solely equal financial return. Return could be experiences, friendships, confidence....That said, a variable in ROI for 99% of potential college students is necessarily financial burden and future. As a 37 year old still paying on loans I signed as a 19 year old adult it stings. My sole responsibility, but I will make my children more aware of how much that can suck than I was.

I think so much of the current hysteria in the U.S. is caused by a very narrow education, especially in sciences and history. College gives you the opportunity to easily get a broader based education.

 

[DouglasR]

Missing the point.



It's you paying for your sheep hunt versus you paying for someone else's college.

One is going on a sheep hunt, one is providing an unfair advantage in life to your offspring

At what point does college become the family business or trade and start creating an unrealistic barrier of entry fot the common man?

 

[Nameless Range]

I think so much of the current hysteria in the U.S. is caused by a very narrow education, especially in sciences and history. College gives you the opportunity to easily get a broader based education.

I understand that line of thinking, but I guess it isn’t clear to me that college graduates aren’t any less prone to hysteria.

In terms of education, to be meaningful, I think it probably starts well before college. That said, College can encourage people to meet real people in the real world, and I think that is important.

 

[RobG]

I understand that line of thinking, but I guess it isn’t clear to me that college graduates aren’t any less prone to hysteria.

In terms of education, to be meaningful, I think it probably starts well before college.

In other words, garbage in, garbage out. I did say "opportunity" realizing it won't happen for everyone. However, it isn't going to happen if you aren't exposed to it.

 

[Irrelevant]

Some get college diplomas and sheep hunts...by working their ass off on their own.

I know, tough for a vast majority to savvy that...

Buzz, I like you. I know I like you, you've been very generous to me with info in the past. But this thread has turned into facebook, it's making want to not like people I know I like.

I'll just say there is nothing wrong with your way. It just wasn't my way, and it won't be my kids' way. To each their own. Enjoy your fall.