Coal Bed Methane

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

Are you going to give us all a tour of the CBM sites you've studied lately and prove that wildlife, water quality, etc. arent being impacted negatively?

Let me know when you plan the tour, I'll get ahold of the MTFWP, Wyoming Game and Fish, Colorado DOW, WY/MT DEQ, Fisheries biologists, Wildlife biologists, hydrologists, and various consulting firms so you can show them all the errors of their ways in regard to CBM development.

 

[ELKCHSR]

Nope!
Haven't been to those places, and that's not what I was talking about. I would really suspect that you knew that, just trying to get things baited in for the kill.

Sorry, you will have to work harder then that.

That may be what the header states on the begining of the thread, but you have scatterd this one all ovet the board, so I will just help out..

 

[Nemont]

I understand that half fully. There is money for these projects, but they only last for a certain amount of time, and every bit of it has to do with the amount of money alloted to the job. No matter what the money is from. I sure don't see many people jumping up and volenteering much if any time or resources to things that are really worth while out of the goodness of their hearts.
If the money dries up, where ever it comes, then the project also follows suit. This area sat stagnant for an awful long time because no one stood up and offered $$$ to clean it up. Money shows up and so does the fixes

Elkchsr,
Not real sure what money it takes to have Multiple use laws.

To say all public lands management is based upon $$$ is not living in reality.

Tom,
Tourism and wildlife suffer if there is not a destination worthy of coming out west for. If habitat is fractionalized with roads Mule deer suffer.

I don't know what else to tell you but you may need to come and walk the ground to get a better feel for what it happening here. Again, I am not against resource development or using public lands for economic gains. My problem with CBM is that it is so destructive.

Nemont

 

[ELKCHSR]

Hey Buzz...
Thanks for helping me get my post count for the day up any way, I really do appreciate it ,the rest of the board has been pretty slow as of late...

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

If you dont know about CBM development and its impacts, why did you even post in this thread?

Other than you're babble, its stayed pretty much on topic.

 

[ELKCHSR]

This has been fun and entertaining, and thanks Tom and Nemont for the info you have provided...

 

[BuzzH]

Elkcheese,

Thanks for providing your vast knowledge of CBM development on this thread, and your reason for posting worthless crap. Glad to see you're keeping up with Bill for the most posts.

 

[Deerslayer]

Originally posted by ELKCHSR:
I understand that half fully.

.....isn't that an oxy...moron?


Elkchsr.....when it becomes all about the money you can kiss your hunting opportunities goodbye....unless your a very wealthy person that doesn't depend on public lands.

You better pray to God every night Buzz and Nemont are right and money does not dictate multiple use policys and environmental issues.

I think Nemonts "endangered species" example was a great one. The spotted owl was up against big money yet shut down very large logging operations.
The same thing has happened with lynx, many trout streams, and countless other flora and fauna. No, it is not always about the money.....nor should it be.

Sometimes it needs to be about doing the right thing......

 

[Tom]

Here's how you quantitate the esthetic value. You ask people what they are willing to pay to have this view? Then, you see how much they will pay? Buzz will pay about $50/year in Wyoming, as I understand it, $600/year in Montana. There's $650, but you have to prorate it for the small piece of the state lost to CBM developement, say 5% of the area, that's $32.50/year and $650 over the 20 years of CBM.

How many people like Buzz will it take to make 61 billion plus at $650 each? That's how you quantitate it. There aren't that many to make it, so, we do the CBM.

How about this one? The additional CBM gas meets an additional 7% of the US demand. 7% of 240 million US citizens is over 15 million US citizens. The displaced hunters and tourist in the Powder River Basin is no where near 15 million people / year. That's how you quantify it, the greatest good, for the most people, for the longest time.

Will people pay 61 billion plus for the few displaced elk and mule deer and antelpe for the CBM sites during this temporary 20 year period?

Answer: No.

Show me how much they payed in the 80s and now? No one has quantified any losses yet.

I'm saying, see if it matches the 61 billion plus of gas.

Also, the elk and mule deer and antelope are renewable, they come back.

CBM is so destructive, guns are so destructive, do you say get rid of them too Nemont?

Benefits and costs, come up with the costs, there's lots of obvious benefits and little costs documented so far.

How many elk live in the whole basin? Start with something like that. Say we kill them all before they starve, what's the value there, all of them? Anybody know?

 

[Deerslayer]

Originally posted by ELKCHSR:
Hey Buzz...
Thanks for helping me get my post count for the day up any way, I really do appreciate it ,the rest of the board has been pretty slow as of late...

I'm just curious.....do you really post just to keep your post count up?....even if you really have nothing to add to the topic?

It would seem that would lesson your credibility on topics when you do speak......if your doing it just to run your post totals up.......

 

[Deerslayer]

Tom.....your looking at one basin. Can't look at just one...where does it stop. Do you want to do some more quantifying? Why don't you quantify the value of all our wildlife?......let's say it was cost effective....for most of the people over the longer period of the time(since hunters and conservationists are the minority)to wipe out several species.......I mean if it would bring in a few more billion, why not? Strip malls and condos down the middle with CBM going on the sides.....now that would fully maximize the lands potential....for most of the people, for the longest time.....

....I am just glad a few of our forefathers and predecessors had a little better wits about them....or my children may not even know what an elk or mule deer is.....except the excentric looking stuffed ones next to the dinosaur in the Smithsonian......

 

[Tom]

That's the only basin in Wyoming with CBM as far as I know, that's why I'm asking about that basin. It stops there, that's the CBM issue for elk.

Yes, I want to do some more quantifying.

All the wildlife is not cost effective. Plenty of people down here, for example, have stopped destruction like that.

Go for it, make the argument, get people to have a baby only when someone else dies, that's it. No more increased demands for gas then, we level off. Get people to stop using gas, we won't need the CBM.

I'd rather they use the water for better habitat after they treat it, that's what I'm thinking.

It was our forefathers and predecessors that came up with that greatest good, for the most people, for the longest time. It was T.Roosevelt's forest man, Gilford Pinchot who came up with that for a conservation priciple.
http://www.pinchot.org/

There's no expectation that all the elk are going to dissappear, that's for sure, aren't they all over on the other side of the state from that CBM basin?

Nobody has documented that we've lost one elk due to CBM yet, have they? I didn't read it yet. What losses are people imagining, how many?

 

[Deerslayer]

Originally posted by Tom:
That's the only basin in Wyoming with CBM as far as I know, that's why I'm asking about that basin. It stops there

Tom, my point being every ounce of habitat we have lost has been about "just right here". Your measuring the common good in dollars and cents....I am proposing protection of our grand natural resources as being common good. But you ARE from Texas, and it is no secret that you guys would rather hunt around oil wells than not. You are ingrained with a sense of commercialization from living and seeing a state turned from something truely wild to a tame one with what was once labeled as wildlife now being fed from troughs at dereks and from truck beds being commonplace.....so I really don't expect you to comprehend the impact of CBM to that basin, or any other environmental threat to our wild places. You have accepted "less than natural" and know it as a way of life.

My dream would be that the West stay wild and not deteriorate to look like Texas, and not have all of our natural resources.....land and wildlife, come down to a profit/loss statement........especially one concocted by a mathmatician behind a desk in Texas who has never even hunted the wilds of a place like Wyoming....

 

[Nemont]

Tom,

The problem is that it is incremental. First it is CBM in the PRB then it is a proposal to again drill on the Rocky Mountain front. Then drill in ANWR. Many of these places are irreplacable.

If you want to be fully aware of these areas you should walk the ground to understand the issue fully.

It is not simply calculating the value of gas vs. the value of wild places. What is the future value of the land? Do you think there will more demands for open space and natural places in the future or less. I believe my children will see an increased demand for wild and scenic places.

If the PBR provided 7% of the gas supply but had to be drilled upon until it looked like a pin cushion, what was gained for the future generations. We are unable to measure the loss of future enjoyment of these lands or their value to succeeding generationf if they had been left in a more natural state. Therefore it may be best to put the money used to develop this resources into energy conservation and conserve 7% of our gas supply.


Nemont

 

[Tom]

We're not talking about any wilderness area, you think there is a wilderness area there in that basin, what is it?

So, who has hunted or fished in the basin there. I have not, no loss there. Have you?

We're not talking about dreams being shattered here, there's no wilderness being threatened.

If so, what is it?

"every ounce of habitat we have lost has been about "just right here"." So, you say the habitat will be lost? The elk will die, the mule deer will die, antelope will die, never come back? Why?

Got any evidense for it? What dream is being destroyed there, what herd, what few animals, any at all?

They've been doing this over 10 years there now, there ought to be plenty of evidense of losses, but people in this thread sure are not giving it.
Buzz says a friend has data some fish took a hit.

Montana fishing is way more commerciallized than Texas fishing is, I don't know about Wyoming. Ask people up there how things are going on the Smith river for fishing?

Nemont, I think part of the drilling contract is commonly to put the land back like it was after they are done. Its not lost for the future, its restored. Its a temporary loss.

 

[Deerslayer]

Originally posted by Tom:
So, who has hunted or fished in the basin there. I have not, no loss there.

......that is a big part of the problem Tom.....people feeling just like you......"If it doesn't hurt me, no loss".

The problem with trying to debate any issue with you, Tom, is that if you can't add it or subtract it, or if it is not in bold black and white print, you just don't get it.......

 

[Nemont]

Tom,
I have hunted throughout the PRB on the Montana side. It is home to some truly beautiful, rugged country. Sparsely populated with huge chunks of Federal land it is a hunters dream. I have hunted areas where I have not seen another person all day on public land.

It is not an area with any political clout but if what is being done to the PRB was done in your favorite hunting area you would be heart sick.

After Twenty years of CBM production and let's be generous and say 20 years for the land to recover, if it will ever recover, I would be nearly 80 years old. While not all game will disappear from these areas the quality of the bucks will decrease and the numbers will decrease. Proven fact.

In those 40 years of CBM production and recovery what are the lost opportunities to pass onto my kids a chance to hunt and recreate in this area worth?

I see you don't really care what the land looks like but I do. I am not opposed to development just to the way they do CBM development.

Nemont

 

[Tom]

You guys are imagining things about me. I care what the land looks like. Why don't you take your house, burn it up, put it back to trees, plants, etc.? Don't you care what the land looks like? Get it, people take up space.

I lost a lease a few years ago because wells came in just a few months before the season. It was a bummer, but we moved a few miles away and it turned out better, I think. I could only hunt one of the places though, so its hard to prove it was better hunting where we moved, but I believe it was, but it was easy to prove the facilities and size of the lease were better.
I even got some friends on the new lease after that move too, so that was better too. The wells didn't shatter any dreams, we just had to move a little and the group was better than what we started with too.

I'm asking who it is a loss for, I don't think its a loss for no one. Nemont, his family, there's a few. So, you have hunted it, but you still have places to hunt, right? Not a big loss so far, compared to the 60 billion of gas generated. Anybody else have a loss there?

CBM only works the way they do it, otherwise they would do it differently, I think. Maybe enough of the water will be treated and enough of the roads protected to keep as much or improve as much habitat as possible, that would be a good thing to work for. People at some of those links above are doing that it looks like too.

Why not make a donation to that Wyoming Outdoor group or the Montana one, Nemont? Do something to help it be better. Or, are you just going to hunt somewhere else now?

 

[Nemont]

Why not make a donation to that Wyoming Outdoor group or the Montana one, Nemont? Do something to help it be better. Or, are you just going to hunt somewhere else now?

Tom,
I already make donations to many conservation organization. If the logic is this: let's use up on area because we can just move to another. What happens when there isn't another place to move to? Also, you are fortunate that you can afford a hunting lease, I am fortunate I have access to a family ranch however many, many people are not lucky. If you make hunting only a rich man sport it will go the way of European hunting.

Nemont

 

[Tom]

Lots of places do draw hunts for what's left to hunt and just rotate hunter's through what's left. Some get lucky, some don't.

We move back to the place we started before we run out. Its a renewable resource.

That's a better answer.

Even in this state, I can guarantee you a public hunt. I bet I could take you, Nemont, on more hunts here for less money than you could take me on in Montana? Maybe we could pm each other about it. Do you ever come down this way?

We have a $45 over the counter liscense that covers 2 javelina, unlimited hogs, and unlimited exotics. The out of state over the counter guaranteed deer liscense here is $250 now I think. I could take you on a public hunt. Any draw hunt here, you have the same chances as me, a resident.