Coal Bed Methane
- Thread starter Oak
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BuzzH
Well-known member
Tom said, "I think I understand your problem better. Its federal land and you just want it for mule deer for the state. The feds probably think you should thank your lucky stars for any mule deer off the federal land given to the state."
No offense, but you dont get it.
CBM development doesnt just effect mule deer. However, its a good place to start in addressing the fact that you're under the delusion that CBM development is harmless. Its not.
Further, its not an issue of just federal lands, the problem with water, weeds, and wildlife is they dont understand jurisdictional boundaries.
You're also wrong about money being the driving force behind proper land management. Check into Natural Resource Policy and law some time, you might find some things of interest. Public lands are not intended to provide corporate America with a livelihood.
I'm still waiting for you to answer the first part of this complicated issue:
How does punching thousands of miles of roads not harm mule deer?
No offense, but you dont get it.
CBM development doesnt just effect mule deer. However, its a good place to start in addressing the fact that you're under the delusion that CBM development is harmless. Its not.
Further, its not an issue of just federal lands, the problem with water, weeds, and wildlife is they dont understand jurisdictional boundaries.
You're also wrong about money being the driving force behind proper land management. Check into Natural Resource Policy and law some time, you might find some things of interest. Public lands are not intended to provide corporate America with a livelihood.
I'm still waiting for you to answer the first part of this complicated issue:
How does punching thousands of miles of roads not harm mule deer?
Nemont
Well-known member
Tom,
I did read the water treatment part. My point is that even with water treatment there is still damage done to both surface water and ground water regardless of treatment.
As for what the Federal gov't thinks about the benefits and cost of Mule deer depends upon which federal agency you talk to. For example USFWS values them over CBM development.
If we use the justification of who pays more taxes to the federal treasury then what time period to we look at? The 20 years of CBM production or 100 years of valuable hunting, recreation and tourism to enjoy unspoiled lands?
Nemont
I did read the water treatment part. My point is that even with water treatment there is still damage done to both surface water and ground water regardless of treatment.
As for what the Federal gov't thinks about the benefits and cost of Mule deer depends upon which federal agency you talk to. For example USFWS values them over CBM development.
If we use the justification of who pays more taxes to the federal treasury then what time period to we look at? The 20 years of CBM production or 100 years of valuable hunting, recreation and tourism to enjoy unspoiled lands?
Nemont
BuzzH
Well-known member
Elkcheese,
Go educate yourself on public land management and resource policy, or better yet, look it up on the net.
You dont have a clue.
Go educate yourself on public land management and resource policy, or better yet, look it up on the net.
You dont have a clue.
The state and feds only hire a certain amount of people to work on the ones they have, because of money.
The big thing I hear a lot is that there are things that should be done, or would like to be done, but that would put them out of budget.
What type of education will over come this?
Or is it that you just need some one to whip on and you think me an easy target because this is only the internet and your world isn't staying inside of the box.
Words are great, but reality is reality and it doesn't take a brain surgeon or rocket scientist or for that matter a high amount of education to see this or to understand basic economics.
Nemont
Well-known member
Elkchsr,
If it were just about money we wouldn't have laws like the endangered species act or the federal superfund, which I believe Anaconda benefitted greatly from.
We would not have multiple use policies and laws for public lands if they were managed to maximize profits.
Nemont
If it were just about money we wouldn't have laws like the endangered species act or the federal superfund, which I believe Anaconda benefitted greatly from.
We would not have multiple use policies and laws for public lands if they were managed to maximize profits.
Nemont
I understand that half fully. There is money for these projects, but they only last for a certain amount of time, and every bit of it has to do with the amount of money alloted to the job. No matter what the money is from. I sure don't see many people jumping up and volenteering much if any time or resources to things that are really worth while out of the goodness of their hearts.
If the money dries up, where ever it comes, then the project also follows suit. This area sat stagnant for an awful long time because no one stood up and offered $$$ to clean it up. Money shows up and so does the fixes...
If the money dries up, where ever it comes, then the project also follows suit. This area sat stagnant for an awful long time because no one stood up and offered $$$ to clean it up. Money shows up and so does the fixes...
Tom
New member
Nemont, if 20 years is right and if 5% to 12% gas production is right, then its over 60 billon dollars worth of gas, alone. That one link suggested the treated water would be worth more than the gas. How much is the hunting and tourism worth, any estimate?
The hunting and tourism is not going away either, its still there. Are there less tags and less tourists? Show me, if so. Lots of benefits, little damage.
The hunting and tourism is not going away either, its still there. Are there less tags and less tourists? Show me, if so. Lots of benefits, little damage.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Elkcheese,
You're wrong as usual, basic economics dont apply to Public lands management, never have, never will, and was never intended to.
Like I said, go educate yourself, (I dont mean going to College, just get a basic grasp on the issues). Thats your biggest problem, you dont even have a laypersons knowledge of Public Lands management, resource policy, or environmental law. I cant reasonably debate an issue with someone who doesnt even have a basic grasp of these things.
If you dont want to be a target, learn about the issues before you spout off about issues you dont even remotely understand.
You didnt have to tell me your arent a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon, thats more than obvious.
You're wrong as usual, basic economics dont apply to Public lands management, never have, never will, and was never intended to.
Like I said, go educate yourself, (I dont mean going to College, just get a basic grasp on the issues). Thats your biggest problem, you dont even have a laypersons knowledge of Public Lands management, resource policy, or environmental law. I cant reasonably debate an issue with someone who doesnt even have a basic grasp of these things.
If you dont want to be a target, learn about the issues before you spout off about issues you dont even remotely understand.
You didnt have to tell me your arent a rocket scientist or a brain surgeon, thats more than obvious.
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tom,
Again, you're wrong. Who in the hell wants to tour a river basin with 3 wells every 80 acres and high road densities. Thats my idea of a quality vacation destination.
If you dont think there will be a very significant impact on elk, mule deer, and antelope numbers, you're really in la-la land. This proves to me that you dont understand the needs of wildlife...at all.
Check out the RMEF, MDF, etc. etc. etc. for some info on how road densities effect wild ungulate numbers, winter range, etc. etc.
Again, you're wrong. Who in the hell wants to tour a river basin with 3 wells every 80 acres and high road densities. Thats my idea of a quality vacation destination.
If you dont think there will be a very significant impact on elk, mule deer, and antelope numbers, you're really in la-la land. This proves to me that you dont understand the needs of wildlife...at all.
Check out the RMEF, MDF, etc. etc. etc. for some info on how road densities effect wild ungulate numbers, winter range, etc. etc.
You like to call names and drag me down, but you can't prove what I have said wrong and that just for some reason eats at your very soul.
Now it would be really nice if you just got to the point of what's really bothering you and then maybe we could do some thing about it. BuzzH
Well-known member
Elkcheese,
I cant prove what you said is wrong?
Thats funny, real funny.
Do you see a trend with Oak, Pointer, Miller, Nemont, etc. etc. etc. always having to correct you?
Why is that?
They all just picking on you?
Earth to Elkcheese.
I cant prove what you said is wrong?
Thats funny, real funny.
Do you see a trend with Oak, Pointer, Miller, Nemont, etc. etc. etc. always having to correct you?
Why is that?
They all just picking on you?
Earth to Elkcheese.
No, I don't see a big trend with that going on...
Once in a while, and some of the "correcting" by some you mentioned, not all, really aren't correcting, but stating one sided facts with endless piles of web space taken up with miles of cut and paste that some one else with an agenda sat down and put together.
It seems only your silly attacks have a tendency to go nowhere...
I can just see this conversation going on in person....
I'm standing there watching this individual screaming and holloring at the top of their lungs, going on and on about nothing. Why is that? What does it gain? Who is it really supposed to impress?
Once in a while, and some of the "correcting" by some you mentioned, not all, really aren't correcting, but stating one sided facts with endless piles of web space taken up with miles of cut and paste that some one else with an agenda sat down and put together.
It seems only your silly attacks have a tendency to go nowhere...
I can just see this conversation going on in person....
Tom
New member
Is this it? The greatest good, for the most people, for the longest time. Pichot said that, right?
Its measured with money.
We make laws to carry it out.
Should I know more on it? What?
Its not going to kill off all the elk,mule deer, and antelope, is it? How many tourists went to the Powder River Basin in the 80s before this started and how many go now?
Its measured with money.
We make laws to carry it out.
Should I know more on it? What?
Its not going to kill off all the elk,mule deer, and antelope, is it? How many tourists went to the Powder River Basin in the 80s before this started and how many go now?
BuzzH
Well-known member
Elkcheese,
If you dont see a trend, you arent looking.
I suggest you look up the word "denial".
If you dont see a trend, you arent looking.
I suggest you look up the word "denial".
BuzzH
Well-known member
Tom said, "Its measured with money."
Really? I disagree.
How do you put aesthetic value in monitary terms?
Really? I disagree.
How do you put aesthetic value in monitary terms?
I will say that I am man enough to know and understand when I am wrong, and to appologize when mistakes are made. Then to also learn from them. I am still waiting for some to take me up on the offer of phisically showing them what I have seen, vs what they have read. Not one taker!
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