CO Guv: Time to talk about gun control

[Straight Arrow]

schmalts and rhomas, you both completely missed my point. I did not misquote ... it was copied and pasted and meant to refer to large magazines as well as the AR-15 type rifle.

I agree, shooting garbage and old tv sets is not murder and other firearms are used also, but that does not reduce its negative impact. Hunting gunfire and also target shooting with aiming intervals between shots does not generally bother people recreating on Montana public lands during hunting season, but rapidly firing a large volume of rounds at an old tv set or a tree does agitate folks. rhomas, I did not imply you would be that irresponsible. But this type of stupid shooting does happen on public recreational lands, whether you are familiar with it or not. I also agree with your passion for maintaining our 2nd Amendment rights.

BUT ... my point is that irresponsible semi-automatic, large capacity magazine AR type rifle owners are creating and perpetuating animosity toward all gun owners with this behavior. My point also is that we need to determine ways to curb that irresponsible gun owner behavior demonstrated by those in our own ranks.
We have to fight against them as well as the anti-gun advocates or the numbers of anti-gun advocates will increase because of behavior of these irresponsible gun owners.

'Don't know how I can make my point any more clear.

 

[WV Hunter]

schmalts and rhomas, you both completely missed my point. I did not misquote ... it was copied and pasted and meant to refer to large magazines as well as the AR-15 type rifle.

I agree, shooting garbage and old tv sets is not murder and other firearms are used also, but that does not reduce its negative impact. Hunting gunfire and also target shooting with aiming intervals between shots does not generally bother people recreating on Montana public lands during hunting season, but rapidly firing a large volume of rounds at an old tv set or a tree does agitate folks. rhomas, I did not imply you would be that irresponsible. But this type of stupid shooting does happen on public recreational lands, whether you are familiar with it or not. I also agree with your passion for maintaining our 2nd Amendment rights.

BUT ... my point is that irresponsible semi-automatic, large capacity magazine AR type rifle owners are creating and perpetuating animosity toward all gun owners with this behavior. My point also is that we need to determine ways to curb that irresponsible gun owner behavior demonstrated by those in our own ranks.
We have to fight against them as well as the anti-gun advocates or the numbers of anti-gun advocates will increase because of behavior of these irresponsible gun owners.

'Don't know how I can make my point any more clear.

I haven't met any irresponsible AR owners. The majority I have shot with, either recreationally or in matches have been some of the most patriotic responsible gun owners I have ever been around.

Most of the hunters I come across go to the range maybe once a year to make sure their deer rifle is close enough. Their irresponsibility ends up with a ton of wounded or never recovered deer.

As for the most trashy shooters around I'd have to say it's the shotgunners. They never pick up their shells. The ground looks like a rainbow of shell colors littered about. Lets not forget about all the clay pigeons, TV's, plastic bottles and so forth the like to blast all over the place as well.

 

[Zach]

I find the AR ban ideals stupid. First of all, shooting garbage is not killing people, nor are AR's the only guns used for this. I can't begin to try and count the amount of road signs i have seen blasted with a shotgun.
Second, will anyone venture to find the data that shows how many killings in the US are done with an AR vs handguns vs knives? I would bet that knives are used more than an AR15. See that is the problem, your not going to solve anything unless you go after what really is doing the killing. And then after that is all said and done and you think removing the tool the killers use will help, you better look at the reality of what tools are most used instead of going after the ones that just look like they could do the most harm.

 

[Straight Arrow]

I give up. It's difficult making a point with someone whose position is based only on personal experience, apparently refusing to believe anything occurs to any extent out of their particular area of experience or travels.

By the way, WV, I agree with your concern about the trash and irresponsiblity of many shotgun shooters on public lands, but that is a different issue. Also, as a VietNam vet, I am impressed with the patriotic responsible gun owners I meet at the range. But those aren't the gun owners whose bad behavior results in an increase in anti-gun advocates.

 

[WV Hunter]

I give up. It's difficult making a point with someone whose position is based only on personal experience, apparently refusing to believe anything occurs to any extent out of their particular area of experience or travels.

By the way, WV, I agree with your concern about the trash and irresponsiblity of many shotgun shooters on public lands, but that is a different issue. Also, as a VietNam vet, I am impressed with the patriotic responsible gun owners I meet at the range. But those aren't the gun owners whose bad behavior results in an increase in anti-gun advocates.

I appreciate your service, my father is a vet also.

You can't make anti-gun advocates any more anti-gun than they are. They hate all guns. If they can get the occasional shooter and hunter on their side to divide gun owners then they have won. They will entice hunters by saying we don't want your bolt rifle or shotgun we want semi autos and get you to preach that AR's are unnecessary and don't belong in the mountains. They will make you feel like you are an elite group of moral gun owners and that AR owners are all a bunch of Randy Weaver / David Koresh terrorists.

Once they get you on board with that they will want to know why you need more than a box or two of shells each year. I mean you can only kill so many animals legally while hunting. It doesn't end.

 

[JohnCushman]

I went to Ft Carson and bought an AR today They were just about sold out and I got one of the three they had left in stock and the next guy that was helped by someone at the counter was looking to buy one too. They also said the number of NICS checks have gone through the roof nationwide.

 

[Straight Arrow]

WV, I am not talking about current anti-gun advocates. The people I am worried about are those who really have not taken a position and generally in Montana mostly accept hunting, shooting, and firearms, but who get upset as they are recreating on public land and then become anti-gun because irresponsible gun owners have done something to upset them.

And what's worse is that they probably won't confront the bad behavior (who would want to confront someone rapidly firing a semi-auto firearm?), they will just go home angry at guns in general.

 

[rhomas]

StraightArrow, I apologize if I misconstrued your post. Now, I understand your position, but I'm afraid that with the inaccuracies of the media and other sources(just look at the chart) with their labels of what is an "assault weapon"; we are fighting an uphill battle against the antis because we can only preach to the choir. None of the MSM will take a position that allows fair, factual reporting or commentary about guns and gun crimes. All of our efforts to educate the folks who are "on the fence" don't get an opportunity to be heard due to the media's lack of honesty. Sure, we can do our best to encourage those slobs who are part of our side to clean up their act, but other than face to face talks with them, how can we get the message across? We sure can't get the media to aid us in any effort to make gun ownership more appealing to those who just might decide to come down off of the fence and join us.

 

[Straight Arrow]

rhomas, I completely agree and share your frustration with the media.

There are just too few venues to get the message out there concerning the importance of the 2nd Amendment. I think this recent tragedy is going to spur some attempts at more gun control and hopefully in the process will allow for voices of reason to present the positive case for just enforcing the many laws now in place. There has already been discussion regarding a more important emphasis on mental health, so hopefully that's where the focus will go.

With the legislative session about to begin in Montana, there are some gun bills such as allowing muzzle suppressors for hunting. Regardless of gun owners' opinions about the bills, I think it may be an opportunity to have public discussion about the positive aspects of gun ownership.

I admire your passion about this issue. Keep up the good work.

 

[schmalts]

That is mass shootings, find the data I asked for, All murder if you can please. BTW, assult weapons are not the top of even a mass shooting, so why would you go after assult weapons before the one used the most? I mean we are talking double the killings with a hand gun, and revolvers and shotguns put togther outnumber assualt weapons.
I bet if you find the data for ALL murder in the country the numbers will look a lot different. Murder is murder, I could care less if it comes in masses or one at a time. to me the amount total killed is the big number to look at. No different than the fact Airline crashes are horrific because so many die at once but in the end, it is still the safest way to travel. If I was tasked to lower the amount of kids killed in travel I would not look at airlines

 

[JohnCushman]

The gun control laws DO work. The shooter in CT tried to buy guns by himself and was DENIED. He did the killing with STOLEN legally purchased weapons. Let's not forget that Washington DC and Chicago have some of the strictest anti gun laws in the country, yet have the HIGHEST rates of gun violence.

 

[schmalts]

Here you go. I think an AR-15 would fall into the "other gun" Why ban assault reapons??? Lets talk reality folks. Lets go after the mentally ill brain first, then worry about assault weapons later

 

[Zach]

That is mass shootings, find the data I asked for, All murder if you can please. BTW, assult weapons are not the top of even a mass shooting, so why would you go after assult weapons before the one used the most? I mean we are talking double the killings with a hand gun, and revolvers and shotguns put togther outnumber assualt weapons.
I bet if you find the data for ALL murder in the country the numbers will look a lot different. Murder is murder, I could care less if it comes in masses or one at a time. to me the amount total killed is the big number to look at. No different than the fact Airline crashes are horrific because so many die at once but in the end, it is still the safest way to travel. If I was tasked to lower the amount of kids killed in travel I would not look at airlines

Sorry, that was just a quick search. Didn't have the time to really delve into the true statistics. I think it agrees with what we both feel, that the assault weapons ban is pretty useless when hand guns do a majority of the damage.

 

[schmalts]

It was pretty much what I expected. Although I did not search hard and only found this up to 2005. Just blows my mind how they use these killings to try and make laws when there are a lot bigger fish to fry. But, in the mind the the anti gun crowd, they know that they can fool those who are not informed. It is easy to see how a person who never shoots or owns a gun would agree that those evil looking AR-15's are so bad and are used to kill in so many of the shootings.

 

[RobG]

Here you go. I think an AR-15 would fall into the "other gun" Why ban assault reapons??? Lets talk reality folks. Lets go after the mentally ill brain first, then worry about assault weapons later

That is actually a far worse path - 1 in 4 people will be affected by some sort of mental illness in their life. They aren't going to seek treatment if they think the will have to give up hunting or their guns. I don't even think the CT killer had anything diagnosable.

 

[schmalts]

. I don't even think the CT killer had anything diagnosable.

Based on what??
Without knowing the facts on this terrible thing all we can do is ask questions and wonder why. I have a really hard time believing that someone who can do this kind of thing never showed any problematic traits before this. If if that is true, my next question is was this guy still living with mom, and if so and he did show these signs why the hell would you have guns like this unlocked?

 

[WV Hunter]

Based on what??
Without knowing the facts on this terrible thing all we can do is ask questions and wonder why. I have a really hard time believing that someone who can do this kind of thing never showed any problematic traits before this. If if that is true, my next question is was this guy still living with mom, and if so and he did show these signs why the hell would you have guns like this unlocked?

Listening to the national news on the way in this morning they said the kid had aspergers. They said he was not allowed to be alone and neighbors that have been there for 15 years didn't know the kid even existed. He never left the house and was thought only to be a danger to himself. His mother introduced him to shooting thinking it could be a way they could bond. There is also a lot of speculation that the kid spent hours playing violent video games for what it's worth.

 

[rhomas]

One point that most of you are missing, and a point that is the most relevant in the entire discussion is in the term "assault weapons". I keep pointing out, repeatedly that an assault weapon is already regulated by the Feds and requires a special Federal license and payment of a tax to own. These killings are being blamed on "assault weapons" that actually are nothing more than a semi-automatic, since a true military assault weapon has a selector switch that allows a single shot, 3-5 shot burst, or fully automatic fire. The chart below is false when it shows murders committed by assault weapons, since in fact NO assault weapons were used! Why, as gun owners, do so many of you continue to fall in line with the anti-gun groups by spreading the same misinformation and falsehoods?? An AR style rifle or shotgun can only fire as rapidly as the shooter can pull the trigger, and I can empty my Remington 597 just as rapidly as I can my Marlin mod. 60, or my Ruger mini-14; so does that make all three of them an "assault weapon"? No, only the Ruger, because it has the capability of adding a 20 or 30 round magazine, according to the gun grabbers. As a side note, Dick's Sporting Goods has now announced that they are suspending sales of certain semi-automatic rifles in all of their stores. How do they intend to distinquish which semi-autos to suspend? Will it be based on magazine capacities, design, or make and model as determined by the Brady Center?

It's way past time for gun owners and the manufacturers to stand up and draw a line in the sand. We need to be using every available option in an effort to educate our own friends and associates about the differences between a semi-automatic weapon and a true military style assault weapon, along with demonstrating that the media and the gun grabbers are spreading false information about guns in an effort to frighten the general public and paint guns as the culprit for a deluded psychopath's actions!!!!!!!!

 

[deer_shooter]

Heard about Dick's pulling 'certain semi automatic' weapons on the news this morning. Sad.

As Fin noted on a similar thread, I hope that when the NRA responds, their message is appropriate and has substance, and is not just rhetoric. The anti's are organized, well funded, and now have this tradgedy to rally around.

 

[Big Fin]

rhomas - ********News flash*******

Contrary to your opinion of our collective ignorance, everyone on this site knows the difference between a fully automatic assault weapon and a semi-automatic.

The battle for that proper identity was lost twenty years ago.