CJ soapbox [illegals]

[pawclaws]

When I first heard the idea of "amnesty" I thought maybe old George had lost his mind. Now that I have had some time to think about it I think it might be a good idea. What are the affects? A whole lot of illegal aliens get the "option" of becoming legal. Those that decide to not become legal must have a pretty darn good reason! Reducing the numbers to be dealt with by INS agents can only be a good thing. What about the affects on employment? Jobs will be vacated! Why, because the "legal" alien doesn't have to settle for "under the table" less than minimum wage cash deals. Employers will either pony up minimum requirements or lose the position entirely. Since the employer must "sponsor" the alien; my guess is that mostly only honest employers will step forward. What about the economy? More tax payers!! More FICA deposits!! More MEDICARE deposits!! And guess what, while a whole lot of our welfare recipients are crying about not being able to find a job, my experience with "guests" tells me that they are most likely to work multiple full-time or part time jobs. To compensate for the lower wage positions the unskilled laborer may work 80 to a hundred hours per week to make ends meet. You know this move may very well cost Bush re-election; he is doing it anyway. It appears to me to be, for the nation, the right thing to do.

 

[imported_Smitty]

Sorry guys, I agree with Paws and I disagree with most of you on this issue, and strongly so. I have aslo posted this same response to a subject on NAHC: I agree with President Bush's decision, primarily beacause the community in which I live and work and because the business I own is soley reliant on migrant workers. The type of jobs being offered are not being taken away from Americans as there are few, if any, Americans applying for the types of jobs that my community employs the migrant workers for. I'm talking about my lawn care businesses and the farm harvesting that occurs here. I feel that so long as they have a job, they should be allowed to stay and I also beleive that a spouse and children of a working illegal should also be able to stay. If illegals in my area were all exported there would be a severeve economic decline in Florida's economy.
I realize that every community is different and that most do not have complete industries that employ illegals. I also realize that illegals pose a higher risk, not only to national security but also on a local level as most do not know how to drive properly.

Even if I did not consider the special circumstances of my own community, I strongly beleive that America itself is a conglomeration of people who migrated from somewhere else, including Indians. I also beleive that we have the most superior economy in the world. And based on these two beleifs I feel that it would be "un-American" to turn away people who want to be Americans as well.

 

[cfree]

In the long run maybe you guys are correct. But in the short term this means that illegal immigration will double, triple, or more in the coming months. Whenever they announce something like this everyone tries to get across the border to get the "legal" status. It may not affect people in Florida, Ohio, Idaho, and Montana...but it sure affects those of us living in Arizona. I guess I am glad that I didn't draw a javelina tag in southern Arizona this year because a flood of immigrants is about to pour across the border in hopes of attaining their "legal" status.

 

[Gambels]

You are right, it could get really ugly. May have lines at all the popular illegal crossings all across the AZ mexico border.

 

[cjcj]

GW BUSH can kiss his "SORRY" ass goodbye! he has condoned and supported people who have committed a "FELONY"! you cannot compare indians/illegals to immigrants period. i never thought i would be so freaking mad at a republican president, he is worse than Bill Clinton ever was. IN AZ we have a huge overpopulation of illegals and many are taking jobs that americans will do[don`t get me started] he has infuriated his strong conservative base so #*^@#* him, i will never ever give him my vote, and i have talked to at least 40 friends/family who say the same, we are just sick about his stance, he is a chickenshit pussy, unamerican asshole who has shit on our country today! WE need a strong third party or a revolution. this is a very sad sad day for america, they might as well just open the border and not even control it, i will be busy as hell tomorrow letting every politition know how i feel. WELCOME TO THE NEW WORLD ORDER!

 

[pawclaws]

Don't expect a mass invasion of illegals because the process will not support it, unless of course congress goes completely insane!

Arizona and California are not illegal alien reservations. I have been to hotels and restaurants in Cleveland, Chicago, and Indiana that I could not converse with the cooks, bus boys, or maids. As a matter of fact; I'm the guy that busted AEP for contracting illegal Mexican labor right here in Athens at the end of my freakin' driveway!

 

[Washington Hunter]

I'm with you cjcj. I don't know what Bush's motives are, but what he did is wrong. All we can hope for is that Bush will be gone a year from now.

 

[pawclaws]

"WE need a strong third party " cj I believe it is the "party" crap that produces low quality candidates. I'd much rather see folk vote "their" choice than the "party" candidate. I think you have missed the boat on this one bud. Try reading what is going on rather jumping the gun with a knee jerk reaction. If you have an abundance of illegals taking jobs where you live; why don't you do something about it? Do you not have law enforcement officers, telephones to call INS, paper to write letters, etc? Were the illegals there before Bush entered office? How long before? People can not live with a problem and ingnore it while it grows and festers and then expect "somebody else" to fix it "for" them overnight. I agree that Bush will probably not be re-elected because of this decision (actually request) but not because of the loss of his conservative base. It will be because he has overestimated the intelligence of the American people and their willingness to do more than simply bitch about our nations problems.

 

[cfree]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm the guy that busted AEP for contracting illegal Mexican labor right here in Athens at the end of my freakin' driveway! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is AEP if you don't mind me asking?

 

[cjcj]

Phil if you think all i do is bitch, then you don`t know me.I have been an activist against the illegals for over 4 years, i also donate money to Roger Barnett/Glen Spencer and other groups, i call Law enforcement/ governors/senators/congress/ins/and every news station that i have on my "list" I report at least once a "day" to the obove listed people/agencies. I have been told by the AZ governors office that my calling borders on "harrassment" I told them to come and arrest me then. [so we could get some news time]they wont they are gutless. but i do feel that the letters/phone calls/petitions are have some "effect" on house/congress members [see the JD Hayworth post] But i have supported GW Bush up until this point, now that he has showed his true colors [anti-american] i will do everything possible with a telephone/p.c./letters etc. to see this no good backstabbing @#)(#$%#@$cker not get re-elected. I guess it`s my age [almost 50] but i see the overpopulation and dumbing down of America as a bigger threat to the "long -term" health/security of this country. and without a "3rd party" or organized group how in the hell can anyone get elected? when was the last time we had a non-republican/democrat in power? ITS time for a "drastic change IMO.

 

[pawclaws]

American Electric and Power (AEP) CFree. Good for you CJ! I wish I could find 150 million just like you!! I don't think Bush is screwing up the works with this move. I think it is the right thing to do. Look at what we have tried for the past 200 years. Has our approach changed? I don't think so. Have the results of our approach changed?? No way. You see if there is only one thing I learned in this lifetime it is this: "If you keep on doing things the same way you; get the same results! It is time for a new approach and I think Bush's suggestion has merit. Examine the affects of what "doing the same things" has had; to our medical care system, our welfare support system, our education system, our military, our churches, our workplace, our internal security, and even our political parties. Buddy it is high time for a new approach.

 

[cjcj]

Phil we have not had an "illegal" immigration problem for 200 years. We have had a "serious" problem since Ronald Reagan granted amnesty in th 80s, since then we have had a flood of illegals coming into the U.S.A. from everywhere, but mostly south america/mexico. Now youre right we need to try a differant tactic, but we have never ever tried to "militarize" our borders, nor have we acted with out and out "zero tolerance" for the illegals and the people that hire them.We as a nation of laws cannot/should not "tolerate" any invasion into our country period. Now that i see GW BUSH is just another phony politition,he will never get me or my family`s vote, he is guttless, after 9/11/01 he had the golden opportunity to "militarize" our borders and would have had the support of most americans, he also could have ordered "all" illegals detained/arrested/checked out and or deported but he never even considered it. thats a logical response to what he said was a "war". he said we are at war [terrorism] but its a freaking joke! every country has the right to defend it`s borders, yet GW Bush and the majority of republicans/democrats simply will not do it. Phil while i respect you opinion, i have to say ,why take the "easy" way out and let our country be overpopulated with poverty ridden, 3rd world, ignorant, non-english speaking, crime/disease infested people? why should our children/and their grandchildren pay for this. I truly believe that if you lived and saw what i see everyday then you would have a differant perspective on this "illegal" situation. just this morning i counted over 150 illegals at home depot BEGGING for work, we already have way way to many that cannot find work, and you know that poverty breeds crime etc. I have seen enough and its sickening and GW Bush will only make this problem worse, HE HAS NO BALLS! IMO.

 

[pawclaws]

So then you think the solution to the problem is to line soldiers at close order along the borders and maybe build a containment wall or something like that? Maybe we should station a Brugade at every airport? Possibly beef up the Coast Guard with containment walls, gun towers, and maybe electrical fences across our water access points? What do you mean by zero tolerance? Should we excute the illegals as well as those who hire them? If that works maybe we can apply the same technique to AIDS patients! Yep, I like it.

 

[Washington Hunter]

We don't need an army at our borders to keep illegals out, although I think that wouldn't be a bad idea. All we would have to do is stop giving them a reason to come here. Don't give them free health care, don't give their children free schooling, don't give them jobs, don't put them on welfare, don't give them housing, and change the law so when an illegal has a baby in our country, the baby is not automatically a U.S. citizen. It would be so simple, but I guess nobody can see it, especially the politicians.

 

[pawclaws]

Sounds simple to me. Sometimes the solutions that work the best are the simple ones. You told this to your politicians yet?

 

[Washington Hunter]

No, I haven't told any politicians, you would think they would be smart enough to figure it out themselves, after all isn't that what we are paying them for?

 

[pawclaws]

No we pay them to legislate; yet they vote themselves raises, travel the world at our expense, get free haircuts, free banking, mooch off the whitehouse kitchen when not eating in the formal dining rooms, and retire with an annual salary that'll make your head spin. Now write the SOBs a letter and tell them what you want them to do and why you voted for them in the first place.

 

[cjcj]

Well you guys are right [simple solutions] we need to enforce our laws period. and this can/should be done. Yes a military presence on our borders is a must, and with todays technology it would not have to involve that many troops. why do we have 100s of thousands of troops around the world in Germany, Bosnia,Korea,Iraq,etc. and we ignore our own? I have put this question to John Mcpain, and others and i am told we are spread to thin right now, which is bullshit, why are we in Germany? that one is sure puzzling, but anyway if we would just get tough on the borders, employers who hire them,and the illegals this would rectify the majority of the problems. but sadly it looks like it is going the other way, and for now i have to blame my president GW BUSH.I only hope that someone like Tom Tancredo [Rep. Colorado] will run for the high office, but at this time the Republican party is trying to shut him up.

 

[pawclaws]

Well CJ it isn't the number of troops but the cost. In Germany much of the cost is born by the Germans as well as NATO and the United Nations. Plus there is the little element of the military establishment telling the congress that we need to be there. Why do we really need to be there? Ever visited any of the plush military complexes in Europe! Good duty bubba! Close to Spain, Netherlands, Italy, France, Switzerland, the Alps and some of the greatest resort areas in the world; that my friend is why. And an astute young man can have one hell of a life while stationed there. You are right CJ we do need to enforce our existing laws and do it evenly with a fair and impartial hand. I really like the ideas of suspending citizenship for children born of illegals, I think it would definitely affect the flow. I also like the idea of terminating welfare support for illegals; first I guess we have to identify them! I think that is what Bush has in mind. Military presence at the borders? Yes I would go along with border patrols and I think they should be military personnel. I think that staffing border patrols through the border states National Guard funded through Homeland Security would be a viable program and should be recommended to Tommy Ridge by the state Adjutants. Not federalized you understand or activated; but patrolling the state's own individual borders. Might be a conflict with Posse Commutatis there but should be something that can be worked out.

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-09-2004 15:31: Message edited by: pawclaws ]</font>

 

[Washington Hunter]

This is from an article on the MSN website. What do you think cjcj? Does Bush really oppose amnesty? For the rest of the article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3936803/


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Amnesty for workers is not part of the plan.

But Bush has insisted, his proposal should not immediately naturalize illegal workers. "I oppose amnesty, placing undocumented workers on the automatic path toward citizenship," he said.

Bush's opposition to full-fledged amnesty pleases some conservatives in the president's own party, but Democrats and some immigration experts have said roadblocks to citizenship could derail the proposal in Congress.

Critics like Maria Cardona, vice president of the New Democratic Network, said the Bush proposal amounts to a slow deportation process.

"This is yet another broken promise on behalf of this administration offered in the guise of a gift to the Hispanic community," Cardona said.

Checks home amount to $12 billion in 2003
But Fox sided with Bush, arguing Mexican migrants don't want U.S citizenship. "We agree with the rejection of amnesty," Mr. Fox said. "These workers are not going to become American citizens, nor do they want U.S. citizenship." More than half of the estimated 8-12 million undocumented workers in the U.S. are Mexican<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<FONT COLOR="#800080" SIZE="1">[ 01-12-2004 13:05: Message edited by: Washington Hunter ]</font>