Can we learn to live with wolves again?

[Deleted member 28227]

Keeping the wolf on the endangered species list, cheapens the value of the list.

It definitely is a bit strange that a species the IUNC has listed as least concern is on the list.

Black-footed ferrets: ~420 worldwide
Gray Wolf: ~300,000 worldwide

Sure there should at least be a conversation about whether or not to allow the species to expand into more of it's historical range... but was it ever actually in danger of going extinct?

 

[BWALKER77]

Wolves weren't reintroduced into MI, MN, or WI. And its not to the fault of the states or the feds that the states are unable to manage wolves...

Correct. Its the fault of leftist environmental and animal rights groups that tied managment in the great lakes region up in court.
Same groups torpedoed dove hunting in MI.

 

[Ben Lamb]

It definitely is a bit strange that a species the IUNC has listed as least concern is on the list.

Black-footed ferrets: ~420 worldwide
Gray Wolf: ~300,000 worldwide

Sure there should at least be a conversation about whether or not to allow the species to expand into more of it's historical range... but was it ever actually in danger of going extinct?

This is a pretty basic misconception about the ESA & how it is applied.

ESA protections are assigned to animals in need of restoration in specific habitats. That's why the whole Distinct Population Segment argument is so critical to restoring state management after recovery criteria are met, but it's also where the enviro litigants are suing - to ensure recovery across the entirety of historical habitat.

Wolves may not be in dire straits in CA< AK, etc, but they were extirpated in the lower 48, where they were listed. Just because a species is doing ok in a different area, doesn't mean ESA protections don't apply. It also means that the United States of America isn't going to rely on other countries to conserve species when they can do it better (or used too).

 

[Deleted member 28227]

ESA protections are assigned to animals in need of restoration in specific habitats. That's why the whole Distinct Population Segment argument is so critical to restoring state management after recovery criteria are met, but it's also where the enviro litigants are suing - to ensure recovery across the entirety of historical habitat.

I understand that hence why it's weird recovered population segments are still on the list... clearly wolves as a species are fine, Colorado wolves... same thing obviously with MT Grizzlies.

The ESA as applied to Caribou, Grizzlies, Wolves, and Lynx, is just a bit different than Black-footed Ferrets and Monk Seals. I think the apparently conflicting agendas/ views on how the list should be used?? is what is strange.

 

[BrentD]

I understand that hence why it's weird recovered population segments are still on the list... clearly wolves as a species are fine, Colorado wolves... same thing obviously with MT Grizzlies.

The ESA as applied to Caribou, Grizzlies, Wolves, and Lynx, is just a bit different than Black-footed Ferrets and Monk Seals. I think the apparently conflicting agendas/ views on how the list should be used?? is what is strange.

The species and the things that threaten them, their public "personas," if you will, and the people that are involved in each one are different, so it would be amazing if everything would be the same.

Sort of like me getting pulled over for speeding in rural Alabama, vs, a local black guy, a local white guy, someone rich, someone poor. The results might be very different for each one, though the crime is the same.

 

[Ben Lamb]

The ESA isn't meant to be a one size fits all application of law. It's a sublime method of causing analysis paralysis on a species- by-species basis, increasing social intolerance for fellow Americans and wildlife while at the same time increasing wildlife populations of species at risk.

Each species is listed based on different criteria and threats. I don't see that as conflicting - complex and difficult yes, but not conflicting. Monk seals have much different conservation needs than Grizzlies.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

The species and the things that threaten them, their public "personas," if you will, and the people that are involved in each one are different, so it would be amazing if everything would be the same.

Sort of like me getting pulled over for speeding in rural Alabama, vs, a local black guy, a local white guy, someone rich, someone poor. The results might be very different for each one, though the crime is the same.

I'm loving this explanation... paired with Ben's "Analysis Paralysis"

 

[HighDesertSage]

https://www.sos.state.co.us/pubs/elections/Initiatives/titleBoard/filings/2019-2020/79Final.pdf

https://coloradosun.com/2019/04/25/colorado-gray-wolf-reintroduction-ballot-proposal/

 

[hank4elk]

I listened to BF's podcast with a AZ DFG guy about grey wolves in AZ& NM & why they do not want wolves in CO or UT.

 

[one ate E grain]

The ESA is a mess. Written with the best of intentions, misused almost from the get go. Many countries simply use the IUCN listing as that's based on science where as the ESA in America is based on the whim of some cat lady in Hoboken. When you have to twist yourself into pretzels with word games to try to explain a thing it's a bad sign.

Wolves naturally dispersing would give us another decade or two. We'll never have any sort of management. Denver voters will make Milwaukee look moderate. The funny part will be when they reach carrying capacity. Lots of people in this state, even on the W slope, lots of little towns with miniature pet horses and people living rural who never set foot off the asphalt even to walk the dogs. Foothold traps were outlawed long ago. I doubt there will be any management at all for wolves.

 

[Mountainguide]

Not sure about what they complain about in your neck of the woods but we already have Texans and Californians to complain about here

I’d take the wolves over them any day!

 

[marshman]

Take a look west, we have got big issues in Washington for sure, ESA listed and now in excess of 15 packs in the state, more than 200 individuals and a population growing over 10% each year. 2018 saw the first documented packs west of the Cascades.
Don't be fooled at all. Wolves spread fast with protection.

 

[bobbydean]

I have a problem with predators. Would the world be worse off with the black footed ferret? My major concern is growing the wolf packs. They devastate the elk and deer and any lessor herbivore.

Why?

I was hunting deer in Dog Canyon, New Mexico when I was 19. Had a coyote in the scope, and didn't want to scare the deer. My brother reamed my ass. 10 deer that coyote could kill and I did not. Never saw one again deer hunting, Missed a long shot on one antelope hunting!

 

[88man]

The big plan to have wolves control big game populations and not hunters is just part of the crazy liberal utopia they are trying to set up. Wolf hunting should be a 24/7/365 open season period. Every hunter should buy his wife a wolf coat so that the fur price is worth trapping due to demand. I am not disrespecting the animal as it is one of gods creatures but god gave man dominion over the animals. Shoot a wolf and save some big game. We are living in a human managed world.

 

[BrentD]

We are living in a human managed world.

Makes the word "wildlife" sort of a self-contained oxymoron, don't you think?

 

[88man]

Humans are the managers and top predator. We are typically the cure and cause.

 

[Twolftg]

I'd be the second biggest mistake for wildlife! The first was the reintroduction of the wolf in the lower 48! Just ask the elk, moose and deer populations!

The wolf never left the lower 48 completely.

 

[Twolftg]

Minnesota has 2,856 wolves as of the 2017 winter survey, more than every other state in the lower 48. And more than Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon combined, in way less habitat. Yet we aren't allowed to hunt them?

Hope Colorado never reintroduces them.

They are a cool creature and enjoy having them on the landscape, but only to a point. Not managing a pre pup population that is under estimated to most dnr employees I've talke to is ignorance defined.

The sightings, tcam pics, howls and sign can get to a guy trying to hunt deer or bears. We run dogs for grouse in areas full of wolves. Bells, beepers and making a lot of noise helps with confrontations, but is no cure all.

Their numbers ebb and flow with their menu choices. Our snow shoe hare and beaver populations really supplement wolves through the low deer number years.

Use a lot of tcams and the wolves will be on a fresh dropped fawn within a very short period of time, hours at most. The amount of bear hair in wolf scat is fascinating. Have seen more bear hair in wolf scat than deer hair. We can bait for bears and once a wolf pack hits a bear site, that site is basically done for at minimum a week or 2. And they'll find sites in short order. They will deficat, urinate and do everything they can to ruin a site, except eat the bait.

Don't hate the wolves, but am fully frontal, the lack of management is irksome. When we were allowed a hunting/trapping season, harvest goals were met faster than they anticipated. That fact alone tells me the DNR employees I've conversed with were spot on with population numbers skewed way lower than the actual, factual on the ground numbers are. Have gleaned every count is pre pups. A lot of pups die and old wolves die, get that.

The fact we can't defend our dogs from a wolf attack is so far past idiotic it makes my head hurt.

Really, really hope it's a slow process for wolves to get to far out of their current range in the west, but their core areas in Minnesota have really expanded fairly quickly. Don't see any reason they don't keep filtering out and expanding their range out west.

I dont find that with my bear baits at all. It really depends on the bears. Where I hunt they seem to coexist pretty well I have endless pictures of multiple wolves at baits with bears, and the bears continue to show up.

 

[idahofishnhunt]

Last weeks Meateater podcast covers some good stuff as he talks to a wolf biologist. There is a lot of explanation in there about why things were done they way they were...plus some good history. It's worth a listen.

 

[88man]

The wolf should have the same protections the coyote has