Can we learn to live with wolves again?

[Dinkshooter]

i must agree with elkduds. However, with a uber left Gov now, anything is possible

 

[BigHornRam]

Very honest assessment from someone who lives in Colorado, elkduds. Obviously you spent some time putting your thoughts together. Appreciate that.

 

[MTGomer]

I can think of one problem in the Weminuche that might be solved by wolves. It has to do with wilderness dwelling domestic mountain maggots. Other than that, there’s probably little benefit to having them. I would imagine that the excess of elk in parts of CO would be hit pretty good, like the Northern Yellowstone herd was. I don’t know how big of a part of the economy the elk are as a resource but it has to be significant. You may be able to count more aspens per acre in riparian areas with less elk, like they tell us they can in Yellowstone, so if that’s your thing that would be a positive.

 

[VikingsGuy]

VikingsGuy,
I grew up and learned to bow hunt in the Superior NF north of Ely back in the 60's and 70's. Wolves (300-500) were there, and deer were extremely scarce. So scarce that the state nearly closed the archery season up there one year. I'm don't recall if they did close the rifle season then (I did not rifle hunt). In any event, it was widely agreed that the low deer populations were a product of severe winters and a maturing second-growth forest. Seeing a deer during the hunting season was about as common as killing one is now. It was very different time.

In the 80s and onward, the winters became much milder on average and second-cut logging increased along with some substantial fires. Deer populations exploded and so did the wolves. Clearly, it was not wolves holding back the deer and, in fact, they were incapable of regulating the deer herd when conditions were favorable. It was deer that were regulating wolves (i.e., bottom up, not top-down regulation).

The bigger story is very different than what you are implying.

Lots of conjecture in both our personal experiences. Your experience neither proves or disproves mine. Different decades, different areas, lots of variables. And of course, correlation does not make causation in either case. All being said and done, I am not a fan of alpha predators return to prominence - but I appreciate many others disagree.

 

[BrentD]

Lots of conjecture in both our personal experiences. Your experience neither proves or disproves mine. Different decades, different areas, lots of variables. And of course, correlation does not make causation in either case. All being said and done, I am not a fan of alpha predators return to prominence - but I appreciate many others disagree.

VikingsGuy,
The simultaneous expansion of deer and wolves during the 80s and 90s is not conjecture. It's a fact. What is responsible for that is probably not much conjecture, but I haven't researched the literature in that regard. Deer herds in the Arrowhead are still much better than they were in the mid 70s, as are the wolf populations.

 

[widnert]

Sss

 

[BrentD]

Sss

I always wonder about people that recommend illegal behavior on public forums.

Does this extend to other illegal activities as well?

 

[onpoint]

"Sss"

Acts 2:38 - For honest truth-seekers, there is only one way.

......................................

 

[PrairieHunter]

Not sure about what they complain about in your neck of the woods but we already have Texans and Californians to complain about here

I thought the broncos, buffaloes, and rams provided enough for people to complain about in Colorado this time of year.

 

[VikingsGuy]

VikingsGuy,
The simultaneous expansion of deer and wolves during the 80s and 90s is not conjecture. It's a fact. What is responsible for that is probably not much conjecture, but I haven't researched the literature in that regard. Deer herds in the Arrowhead are still much better than they were in the mid 70s, as are the wolf populations.

I leave you to be the expert of the 70s 80s and early 90s. My timeline is late 90's to present, and again in my corner of the world wolves were rare and deer plentyful, and now the opposite is true. As I said before, anecdotal to the broader topic, but true none the less on my land.

 

[MN Public Hunter]

Minnesota has 2,856 wolves as of the 2017 winter survey, more than every other state in the lower 48. And more than Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon combined, in way less habitat. Yet we aren't allowed to hunt them?

Hope Colorado never reintroduces them.

They are a cool creature and enjoy having them on the landscape, but only to a point. Not managing a pre pup population that is under estimated to most dnr employees I've talke to is ignorance defined.

The sightings, tcam pics, howls and sign can get to a guy trying to hunt deer or bears. We run dogs for grouse in areas full of wolves. Bells, beepers and making a lot of noise helps with confrontations, but is no cure all.

Their numbers ebb and flow with their menu choices. Our snow shoe hare and beaver populations really supplement wolves through the low deer number years.

Use a lot of tcams and the wolves will be on a fresh dropped fawn within a very short period of time, hours at most. The amount of bear hair in wolf scat is fascinating. Have seen more bear hair in wolf scat than deer hair. We can bait for bears and once a wolf pack hits a bear site, that site is basically done for at minimum a week or 2. And they'll find sites in short order. They will deficat, urinate and do everything they can to ruin a site, except eat the bait.

Don't hate the wolves, but am fully frontal, the lack of management is irksome. When we were allowed a hunting/trapping season, harvest goals were met faster than they anticipated. That fact alone tells me the DNR employees I've conversed with were spot on with population numbers skewed way lower than the actual, factual on the ground numbers are. Have gleaned every count is pre pups. A lot of pups die and old wolves die, get that.

The fact we can't defend our dogs from a wolf attack is so far past idiotic it makes my head hurt.

Really, really hope it's a slow process for wolves to get to far out of their current range in the west, but their core areas in Minnesota have really expanded fairly quickly. Don't see any reason they don't keep filtering out and expanding their range out west.

I know right....every time this subject comes up I pipe in with the same info and I believe your numbers are actually low. Every one out west has an issue with wolves, but yet don't have anywhere near the numbers as we have in MN. I suggest we ship a few packs west.....

 

[Sytes]

I know right....every time this subject comes up I pipe in with the same info and I believe your numbers are actually low. Every one out west has an issue with wolves, but yet don't have anywhere near the numbers as we have in MN. I suggest we ship a few packs west.....

NW MN had a count of 79 elk (no, no error in that #... It's a whopping 79). How about you keep your wolves and spend your non resident $ in ID, CO, MT or WY to hunt elk where it's the opposite... Many elk, less wolves. Least for now, that is.

It's absolutely mind boggling you've been unable to hunt wolves!??! Congress actually helped with something?!?! Thats one for the history books.
http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/4530304-house-passes-bill-allow-wolf-hunting-trapping

 

[MN Public Hunter]

NW MN had a count of 79 elk (no, no error in that #... It's a whopping 79). How about you keep your wolves and spend your non resident $ in ID, CO, MT or WY to hunt elk where it's the opposite... Many elk, less wolves. Least for now, that is.

It's absolutely mind boggling you've been unable to hunt wolves!??! Congress actually helped with something?!?! Thats one for the history books.
http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/news/4530304-house-passes-bill-allow-wolf-hunting-trapping

I just want to SHARE the wealth..... :O

 

[widnert]

I always wonder about people that recommend illegal behavior on public forums.

Does this extend to other illegal activities as well?

Wow - does it take a 16ft or 20ft ladder to get you up on that high horse?

 

[widnert]

"Sss"

Acts 2:38 - For honest truth-seekers, there is only one way.

......................................

Laws written by man........

 

[BrentD]

Wow - does it take a 16ft or 20ft ladder to get you up on that high horse?

Not at all. Do you condone elk poaching as well?

 

[HighDesertSage]

Sss

That last "s" really is the hardest part for your crowd, isn't it.

 

[VikingsGuy]

Wow - does it take a 16ft or 20ft ladder to get you up on that high horse?

I’m with BrentD on this - lawfulness is not a high horse, it’s an expected minimum..

 

[widnert]

So then, I can expect every single one of you that's jumping on my simple opinion to calmly standby and watch a pack of wolves devour a calf, while it's still alive and calling out for mom, without doing anything. Being dis-disemboweled while alive, blood going everywhere, while 4 or 5 snapping, snarling killers just have their way. Just calmly allow that to happen in front of you because hey, it's not legal to shoot a wolf without a special tag. Then, seeing an entire flock of around 140 sheep killed in one night. Throats ripped open. Only a couple showing signs of being eaten. Blood all over the pasture. And then later, having to justify your actions to any authorities as they "investigate" and you have to prove what occurred. That your actions were justified. Apparently, I am the only one here that sees this as astonishing, shocking and am moved to act. Maybe I'm just not de-sensitized so much from my blinding righteousness yet.

Again I say it, Wow. Must be nice living in that safe space. Where the only interaction you have with these creatures is hearing a few howls in the night while you're curled up in your tent on an elk hunt. Feeling like your back in time hunting like a real man. Thumping your chest along the way. Maybe some should just pause a moment or two and realize that sitting behind your keyboard, far away from the realities of the real world, with safety and security around you, you may not know quite enough to adequately evaluate everyone's situation. Sometimes, the most direct resolution is the most effective and actually, the most correct. Regardless of what someone writes on a piece of paper as the "law".

I'll step away from this thread now because I'm sure my written words will have little effect on some of you. You'll likely do the internet knee-jerk pile-on now and try to shame me into silence but, reality doesn't change. Carry on.

 

[Ben Lamb]

So then, I can expect every single one of you that's jumping on my simple opinion to calmly standby and watch a pack of wolves devour a calf, while it's still alive and calling out for mom, without doing anything. Being dis-disemboweled while alive, blood going everywhere, while 4 or 5 snapping, snarling killers just have their way. Just calmly allow that to happen in front of you because hey, it's not legal to shoot a wolf without a special tag. Then, seeing an entire flock of around 140 sheep killed in one night. Throats ripped open. Only a couple showing signs of being eaten. Blood all over the pasture. And then later, having to justify your actions to any authorities as they "investigate" and you have to prove what occurred. That your actions were justified. Apparently, I am the only one here that sees this as astonishing, shocking and am moved to act. Maybe I'm just not de-sensitized so much from my blinding righteousness yet.

Again I say it, Wow. Must be nice living in that safe space. Where the only interaction you have with these creatures is hearing a few howls in the night while you're curled up in your tent on an elk hunt. Feeling like your back in time hunting like a real man. Thumping your chest along the way. Maybe some should just pause a moment or two and realize that sitting behind your keyboard, far away from the realities of the real world, with safety and security around you, you may not know quite enough to adequately evaluate everyone's situation. Sometimes, the most direct resolution is the most effective and actually, the most correct. Regardless of what someone writes on a piece of paper as the "law".

I'll step away from this thread now because I'm sure my written words will have little effect on some of you. You'll likely do the internet knee-jerk pile-on now and try to shame me into silence but, reality doesn't change. Carry on.

Montana state law allows for the take of any animal that is destroying livestock, without permit or permission from the state.

Landowners/producers, under SB 200 from 2013, now have the ability to kill wolves on public land leases either themselves, or through their employees.

Furthermore, the Livestock Loss & Mitigation board has funding to help ensure that depredation doesn't occur in the first place, or to help producers who are negatively impacted by wolves, bears & now lions.

It's a bad situation when livestock gets killed, I agree. I don't tend to anthropomorphize the issue, as it's really critters doing what critters do. But I also don't think that livestock producers shouldn't be able to protect their property and take out offending animals. No need to SSS, just follow the law and protect yourself & your property.