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California Governor Called "Trumpian"

FI460 said:
Plenty of the left doesn't want that.

Congress could have funded alternative forest management 30 years ago. Instead the extremes of each side have just pissed and moaned about either clear cuts or tree huggers and nothing was accomplished.
Click to expand...
Spot on.
It's never been a Red or Blue issue. It was and still is a Green,$. One everyone seems to get a slice of, but the People and Public Lands.
If memory serves me the original bill laid out was once named the Quincy-Fiensten Library act,such & such. The head gofer for the meetings was usually McCarthy,who was a shark skin suit hack for Bill Thomas(R) and another teabag original lady from Mariposa or ?,forget her name.
Soon as anything passes the opposite happens and poof,there's no $.
 
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This boogy (wo)man democrat has the audacity to want to cut over a million acres over the next 20-yrs here in WA. Her strategy is to not mention cutting and just call it management.

Commissioner of Public Lands Hilary Franz | WA - DNR

Commissioner of Public Lands Hilary Franz leads Washington state’s wildfire fighting force and manages nearly 6 million acres of public lands – from coastal waters and aquatic reserves, to working forests and farms, commercial developments, and unparalleled recreation areas. Commissioner Franz...
www.dnr.wa.gov www.dnr.wa.gov
The plan:

20-Year Forest Health Strategic Plan: Central and Eastern Washington | WA - DNR

We have a forest health crisis in our state. And because of our forest health crisis, we are seeing more catastrophic wildfires. Hot, dry conditions coupled with diseased and dying forests are leading to explosive wildfires, which threaten our communities and fill our summer skies with smoke. In...
www.dnr.wa.gov www.dnr.wa.gov
 
hank4elk said:
I'll eat some pie while I suck smoke.
My logger/mill owner/contract fire equipment guy here has contracts for thinning along roads,hazards & such. Dead trees mostly after our largest fire a few years back. Was pulling logs for a bit this winter,not even started on contract really. A dent in the problem.
Got shut down. No full explanation,like usual.

He moved his whole mill crew,14, & the fellers,truckers to a local ranch he had a contract for thinning on. It is a poster of what should be done on overgrown forest lands. Well spaced trees of varying age,thinned and room to grow. All slash chipped. Not a track on steep hillsides left.
Looks like a thinning job I would have done in a park at one time, on thousands more times the space.

The surrounding Apache NF lands are a tinderbox of fuel,waiting. The Gila that did not burn a few years back will. I have watched the last old growth that was left burn the last few years. All of Eagle Peak. Most of Aspen Mtn. groves.
What the firefighters a few years back gave all for.

There are no funds. There are bribes and $ to be made for the free market & congress.
A trillion dollars,would be a drop in the bucket now. Chump change.Chumps that actually pay those taxes.

I'll sign off this one & eat pie.
Click to expand...
Chumps do pay taxes. Maybe some will wake up one day and realize they are no longer chumps. Eating pie is much better when you are chump free.
 
neffa3 said:
This boogy (wo)man democrat has the audacity to want to cut over a million acres over the next 20-yrs here in WA. Her strategy is to not mention cutting and just call it management.

Commissioner of Public Lands Hilary Franz | WA - DNR

Commissioner of Public Lands Hilary Franz leads Washington state’s wildfire fighting force and manages nearly 6 million acres of public lands – from coastal waters and aquatic reserves, to working forests and farms, commercial developments, and unparalleled recreation areas. Commissioner Franz...
www.dnr.wa.gov www.dnr.wa.gov
The plan:

20-Year Forest Health Strategic Plan: Central and Eastern Washington | WA - DNR

We have a forest health crisis in our state. And because of our forest health crisis, we are seeing more catastrophic wildfires. Hot, dry conditions coupled with diseased and dying forests are leading to explosive wildfires, which threaten our communities and fill our summer skies with smoke. In...
www.dnr.wa.gov www.dnr.wa.gov
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www.seattletimes.com

Logging near Cle Elum aims to protect forest land and communities from megafires

This project's expected to last until 2022 and treat 340 acres within about a mile of the nearby towns, giving them more protection from the megafires devastating the West, including Malden in Washington last summer.
www.seattletimes.com www.seattletimes.com
 
Straight Arrow said:
Semantics, terms, words do have meaning ... but also trigger drama, and political over sensationalism. Tomatoes, tomautoes ... don't get your panties in wad over it.
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The real problem is that her strategy requires many of those acres to be on USFS lands. Easy to do fuel reduction on private lands, harder to do on public. Time will tell if these goals can be accomplished.

"The pace of forest health treatment must increase substantially for the state to meet its goal of 2.7 million acres in Eastern Washington by 2037."
 
BigHornRam said:
The real problem is that her strategy requires many of those acres to be on USFS lands. Easy to do fuel reduction on private lands, harder to do on public. Time will tell if these goals can be accomplished.

"The pace of forest health treatment must increase substantially for the state to meet its goal of 2.7 million acres in Eastern Washington by 2037."
Click to expand...

Good Neighbor Authority helps expedite this on public lands. Each state can designate quite a bit of land for stewardship projects. Who cares what it's called so long as it's done, and done right.
 
Ben Lamb said:
Good Neighbor Authority helps expedite this on public lands. Each state can designate quite a bit of land for stewardship projects. Who cares what it's called so long as it's done, and done right.
Click to expand...
Yep. Ball is starting to roll. Now to keep it rolling.

First 'Good Neighbor' Timber Sale Begins On Kootenai National Forest

Earlier this week, Gov. Greg Gianforte announced one of the first timber sales to go through a state-federal partnership this year. The amount of timber...
www.ypradio.org www.ypradio.org

Gov. Gianforte Tours Good Neighbor Authority Project in Kootenai National Forest

news.mt.gov news.mt.gov
 
BigHornRam said:
One from last year near Helena that explains the process well.
helenair.com

Helena-area timber sale latest in state and federal partnership

The state of Montana will contract and manage a new timber sale and fuels reduction project near Helena under a program that both state and federal officials believe will play
helenair.com helenair.com

Litigation was still part of the process.
Click to expand...

The judge allowing the project to go forward should be a good indicator of how the case would come out.

We were able to dramatically increase FTE's and spending under the DNRC on this in '19, Bullock's last session. I think that level of investment was about the same in 21, but didn't follow it as closely. That portion of the budget didn't change much between Gianforte & Bullock, IIRC. Regardless, the budget subcommittee was really good on this issue, and it was fun to be on the same side of wood products pushing for better stewardship. There are some really good folks working for timber.
 
So, several things here:

1. The northern spotted owl was listed in 1992 and essentially shut the door on most federal land management at that point.

2. The QLG was betrayed by Feinstein and Boxer, when they both decided to walk away from the idea. Now, Chester will die a slow death as the company who owns the mill in that town won't last long after the salvage logging. Asking them to reforest for a third time in the last 20 years is just nuts. Millions and millions of dollars of wasted reforestation efforts up needlessly.

3. The Dixie Fire which is now over 800K acres has burnt major areas which have burnt twice before in the last 20 years (Chipps and Storie Fires) as well as the Moonlight Fire. The reason that this fire got so bad is because there was no salvage logging or reforestation efforts following these earlier fires. These areas have essentially been converted to brush with standing dead timber everywhere. The FS is refusing to fight fire in many of these areas and in other areas are firing off burning down entire towns.

4. Last year over 1 million acres of the Mendocino National Forest burnt. Over the last two years all of the Mendocino NF has been destroyed. Nothing has been salvaged. That is 1.4 million acres of federal land which could have generated billions of dollars in revenue. Federal land management has to change or else we won't have forests in the near future.

There are a lot of things wrong with the People's Republic, but the Federal land management has to change.
 
jumpshooter said:
So, several things here:

1. The northern spotted owl was listed in 1992 and essentially shut the door on most federal land management at that point.

2. The QLG was betrayed by Feinstein and Boxer, when they both decided to walk away from the idea. Now, Chester will die a slow death as the company who owns the mill in that town won't last long after the salvage logging. Asking them to reforest for a third time in the last 20 years is just nuts. Millions and millions of dollars of wasted reforestation efforts up needlessly.

3. The Dixie Fire which is now over 800K acres has burnt major areas which have burnt twice before in the last 20 years (Chipps and Storie Fires) as well as the Moonlight Fire. The reason that this fire got so bad is because there was no salvage logging or reforestation efforts following these earlier fires. These areas have essentially been converted to brush with standing dead timber everywhere. The FS is refusing to fight fire in many of these areas and in other areas are firing off burning down entire towns.

4. Last year over 1 million acres of the Mendocino National Forest burnt. Over the last two years all of the Mendocino NF has been destroyed. Nothing has been salvaged. That is 1.4 million acres of federal land which could have generated billions of dollars in revenue. Federal land management has to change or else we won't have forests in the near future.

There are a lot of things wrong with the People's Republic, but the Federal land management has to change.
Click to expand...

It's not for lack of trying on FS part:

mendovoice.com

August Complex cleanup under way, plans for salvage logging near Covelo • The Mendocino Voice | Mendocino County, CA

August Complex cleanup is underway.
mendovoice.com mendovoice.com

 
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FI460 said:
It's not for lack of trying on FS part:

mendovoice.com

August Complex cleanup under way, plans for salvage logging near Covelo • The Mendocino Voice | Mendocino County, CA

August Complex cleanup is underway.
mendovoice.com mendovoice.com

Click to expand...

Really?

I would argue that it isn't the fault of seasonal firefighters fault, but I would absolutely argue that this is to a massive degree a FS issue and very much to blame. When the Chief of the Forest Service (now gone) is offered the keys to the gates earlier this year by Congress and flatly says we don't need anything...... That was about the dumbest thing I have every heard.

Then to have every contract for private help put on hold this year because someone messed up...... This put every private contract on hold this year for several months. No private assistance from state agencies, no food services or fuel delivery by private contractors. No private air attack..........

Federal firefighters here in Ca aren't fighting fire at night when it is actually the safest and best time to make progress on a fire. This is a federal policy issue and is very much a Forest Service issue.

I will agree that the FS's hands have been restrained by the Equal Opportunity to Justice Act and every time they try and put out a contract for logging it gets sued. I am talking about some very simple things:

The following are some statics from the Forest Service's own reports from some local California Fires:

2007 Moonlight Fire. From the Plumas National Forest environmental assessment 88,000 acres of federal ground burnt with 4100 acres proposed for reforestation (4.6%).

2007 and 2008 Westside Fire Complex. From the Shasta Trinity National Forest Record of Decision. 200,000 federal acres burnt with 17,654 acres proposed for reforestation (8.8%).

2012 Bagley Fire. From the Shasta Trinity National Forest BAER report. 32,000 acres of federal land burnt, 2500 acres proposed for reforestation in the report, but no follow up work ever done past the Baer report. No reforestation. (0%)

2013 Rim Fire. From the Stanislaus National Forest Record of Decision. 154,530 federal acres burnt with 21,279 acres planned for reforestation (13.8%).

2014 Eiler and Bald Fires on the Lassen National Forest. From the Hat Creek Fire Restoration Project report 70,994 federal acres burnt, 7,146 acres were replanted after the fire, but no vegetation control was implemented and the plantations failed. Total acres planned for reforestation equals 10%.

2014 King Fire. From the El Dorado National Forest Record of Decision. 63,536 acres of federal land burnt with 10,609 acres reforested (16.7%).

2018 Carr, Delta and Hirz fires on the Shasta Trinity National Forest, BLM and National Park Service. According to the Carr Fire BAER report 132,000 acres of federal land including USFS, BLM and NPS ground was lost in the fire. Total acres burned for the Delta and Hirz fires was 109,461 acres. The amount of reforestation post fire??? Zero.

In 2020, the Mendocino and Shasta Trinity National Forests were hit with the August Complex megafires that were over 1,000,000 acres burned. It is early in the process but according to the scoping documents from the Shasta Trinity National Forest, 140,000 acres of the Shasta Trinity National Forest was lost and early proposals are designating 2700 acres for reforestation (2%). The Mendocino National Forest lost 612,634 acres and so far have proposed 1617 acres for reforestation (0.6%).

For just these fires a total of 1,603,155 acres of federal ground was lost with just 65,105 acres either reforested or planned for reforestation or 4% of the total ground burnt for a net loss of 1,538,050 of forest land not designated to be reforested.

The one which really gets me is the area where the Dixie Fire is currently burning has burn 2 times in the last 20 years (the Chipps and Storie Fires). The Storie Fire, the Feds were awarded over $80 million in a lawsuit from how the fire started. You know how many trees were planted with that $80 million??? 200. These fires were 40,000 to 50,000 acre fires. No salvaging was done and now these areas are burning again. These were some beautiful Ponderosa Pine stands.

So, to say that this isn't the FS fault is bull. The Forest Service is very much at fault here, but so it the state, so are the loggers and foresters who logged the original old growth forests, so is every tax payer who hasn't voiced a that science and not politics should govern our forest management when we import 95% of our woods needs in this state from Or, Wash, and BC.

We as a society have given into the idea that the greener the forest, the more healthy it is. Historically, we would have had a lower densities in these stands 40 to 75 trees per acre. Especially on the east side. These stands had fire on them every 5 to 7 years. Now, we have more than 200 trees per acre and in a lot of places 2 times than even.

We can do better and if we don't, we are going to see type conversion on a massive level in this state.
 
jumpshooter said:
Really?

I would argue that it isn't the fault of seasonal firefighters fault, but I would absolutely argue that this is to a massive degree a FS issue and very much to blame. When the Chief of the Forest Service (now gone) is offered the keys to the gates earlier this year by Congress and flatly says we don't need anything...... That was about the dumbest thing I have every heard.

Then to have every contract for private help put on hold this year because someone messed up...... This put every private contract on hold this year for several months. No private assistance from state agencies, no food services or fuel delivery by private contractors. No private air attack..........

Federal firefighters here in Ca aren't fighting fire at night when it is actually the safest and best time to make progress on a fire. This is a federal policy issue and is very much a Forest Service issue.

I will agree that the FS's hands have been restrained by the Equal Opportunity to Justice Act and every time they try and put out a contract for logging it gets sued. I am talking about some very simple things:

The following are some statics from the Forest Service's own reports from some local California Fires:

2007 Moonlight Fire. From the Plumas National Forest environmental assessment 88,000 acres of federal ground burnt with 4100 acres proposed for reforestation (4.6%).

2007 and 2008 Westside Fire Complex. From the Shasta Trinity National Forest Record of Decision. 200,000 federal acres burnt with 17,654 acres proposed for reforestation (8.8%).

2012 Bagley Fire. From the Shasta Trinity National Forest BAER report. 32,000 acres of federal land burnt, 2500 acres proposed for reforestation in the report, but no follow up work ever done past the Baer report. No reforestation. (0%)

2013 Rim Fire. From the Stanislaus National Forest Record of Decision. 154,530 federal acres burnt with 21,279 acres planned for reforestation (13.8%).

2014 Eiler and Bald Fires on the Lassen National Forest. From the Hat Creek Fire Restoration Project report 70,994 federal acres burnt, 7,146 acres were replanted after the fire, but no vegetation control was implemented and the plantations failed. Total acres planned for reforestation equals 10%.

2014 King Fire. From the El Dorado National Forest Record of Decision. 63,536 acres of federal land burnt with 10,609 acres reforested (16.7%).

2018 Carr, Delta and Hirz fires on the Shasta Trinity National Forest, BLM and National Park Service. According to the Carr Fire BAER report 132,000 acres of federal land including USFS, BLM and NPS ground was lost in the fire. Total acres burned for the Delta and Hirz fires was 109,461 acres. The amount of reforestation post fire??? Zero.

In 2020, the Mendocino and Shasta Trinity National Forests were hit with the August Complex megafires that were over 1,000,000 acres burned. It is early in the process but according to the scoping documents from the Shasta Trinity National Forest, 140,000 acres of the Shasta Trinity National Forest was lost and early proposals are designating 2700 acres for reforestation (2%). The Mendocino National Forest lost 612,634 acres and so far have proposed 1617 acres for reforestation (0.6%).

For just these fires a total of 1,603,155 acres of federal ground was lost with just 65,105 acres either reforested or planned for reforestation or 4% of the total ground burnt for a net loss of 1,538,050 of forest land not designated to be reforested.

The one which really gets me is the area where the Dixie Fire is currently burning has burn 2 times in the last 20 years (the Chipps and Storie Fires). The Storie Fire, the Feds were awarded over $80 million in a lawsuit from how the fire started. You know how many trees were planted with that $80 million??? 200. These fires were 40,000 to 50,000 acre fires. No salvaging was done and now these areas are burning again. These were some beautiful Ponderosa Pine stands.

So, to say that this isn't the FS fault is bull. The Forest Service is very much at fault here, but so it the state, so are the loggers and foresters who logged the original old growth forests, so is every tax payer who hasn't voiced a that science and not politics should govern our forest management when we import 95% of our woods needs in this state from Or, Wash, and BC.

We as a society have given into the idea that the greener the forest, the more healthy it is. Historically, we would have had a lower densities in these stands 40 to 75 trees per acre. Especially on the east side. These stands had fire on them every 5 to 7 years. Now, we have more than 200 trees per acre and in a lot of places 2 times than even.

We can do better and if we don't, we are going to see type conversion on a massive level in this state.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure acres of reforestation is the best metric for this discussion, at the end you point out that most areas already have too many trees per acre, and most of these areas regrowth of conifer isn't a problem.

I'd look at how much of these burned areas were actually thinned or logged prior to burning, as well as what has been proposed for thinning and logging that hasn't happened due to lawsuits.

Another consideration is that mills are really only interested in merchantable timber, so many areas the thinning and precommercial work has to be paid for with Stewardship funding and it isn't cheap.

FS has their blame in the issue, but it does go beyond FS in the bigger picture.
 
kwyeewyk said:
I'm not sure acres of reforestation is the best metric for this discussion, at the end you point out that most areas already have too many trees per acre, and most of these areas regrowth of conifer isn't a problem.

I'd look at how much of these burned areas were actually thinned or logged prior to burning, as well as what has been proposed for thinning and logging that hasn't happened due to lawsuits.

Another consideration is that mills are really only interested in merchantable timber, so many areas the thinning and precommercial work has to be paid for with Stewardship funding and it isn't cheap.

FS has their blame in the issue, but it does go beyond FS in the bigger picture.
Click to expand...
Ok, so I will take this in a few different directions:

Most modern sawmills have retooled and are taking down to 6" diameters and most new mills are only putting in small log mills who can handle anything larger than a 28" log. That is very small by California standards. Our problem here in California with the mills is that they have been asking for years what the output is going to be from federal lands and they can't get any commitment from the FS. If they knew what to plan for, they could tool up and add resources, but in reality, we are now under 30 mills in the entire state of California with over 33 million acres of forestland. That isn't nearly enough to make a drop in the bucket at this point. California has made it too difficult for pulp, paper and particle board mills to make it here and Co-gen is a non-starter unfortunately. If we are going to treat the small noncommercial and brush, we need biomass to get it out of the woods and that simply isn't going to happen in Ca.

In terms of trees per acre, yes, or historic forests in the Sierra and Cascades had 40 to 75 trees per acre, today, they have hundreds on way way to many acres.

Reforestation on some of these fires isn't going to happen naturally when you look at the sheer size of them for centuries. Douglas-fir is our best aerial seeder and it can only go maybe a mile at best. Other species are a fraction of that. These fires have burnt millions of acres and most under conditions where there will be no crop to seed in. So, it will take hundreds of years for the lands to ever see trees again. None of them other than the oaks will sprout, so we will covert to brush in most instances. The Dixie Fire is currently at 1,400 square miles in size and still burning. There are states smaller than this fire.

Reforestation is going to need to happen if we want so see trees there again in our grandchildren's lives.

Finally, the reason that the salvage logging is really important is that we are now burning up the same ground in some places for the 3rd time in the last 20 years and the reason is because the salvage logging didn't take place the last two times and it made it impossible (reason given by the FS) to fight fire in those areas. Who wants to put their life on the line in a dead snag patch?
 
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