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Buzz's Friends Delt Major Setback

BigHornRam

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Buzz's Friends Dealt Major Setback

Judge Malloy is starting to catch on to the zero cutters game plan.

Federal judge gives go-ahead for Bitterroot hazardous fuels project
By PERRY BACKUS of the Missoulian



It didn't take long for U.S. District Judge Donald Molloy to decide that Montana's first hazardous fuels project under the Bush administration's Healthy Forests Restoration Act could move forward.

Molloy denied a request for a preliminary injunction sought by Missoula's WildWest Institute and the Friends of the Bitterroot on the controversial Middle East Fork Hazardous Fuel Reduction Project last Friday, a day after hearing arguments on the matter in his Missoula courtroom.

Molloy said the environmental groups' chances of succeeding on the merits of their claim the U.S. Forest Service broke the law by not fully collaborating with the public were low.


In fact, the Forest Service took a hard look at environmental impacts; they considered and presented opposing scientific information; they were responsive and inclusive with the public throughout the process; and they didn't clearly make a premature commitment of irretrievable resources, Molloy said in his order denying the preliminary injunction.

“The plaintiffs failed to show they have a ‘fair chance' of succeeding in proving the defendants violated NEPA and NFMA,” Molloy wrote.

The possibility of a severe wildfire and its effect on the community is a measurable injury, Molloy said. Because a wildfire could block the only road going into the area, the judge said he had to balance the risk of human lives with the loss of recreation opportunities.

“In balancing the hardship to the parties, the scales tip toward the defendants and away from granting a preliminary injunction,” he wrote.

The environmental groups claimed the Forest Service violated federal environmental laws by committing resources before a decision was made, censoring contrary science, selectively excluding members of the public from the process, and not taking a hard look at soils.

They argued they'd suffer immediate injury if the project moved forward, because they live and recreate in the area and logging would degrade the forest. They didn't have a problem with work completed near structures, the environmentalists said, but were opposed to commercial logging.

The Forest Service and intervenors said the agency followed the law in putting together the project. Furthermore, they argued that because there is only one motorized access in and out of the area, doing nothing would increase the risk of a severe wildfire that could injure area residents and firefighters.

Molloy's order questioned the environmental groups' methods of obtaining comments for the project. The groups said 98 percent of the 11,000 public comments received on the project supported the alternative they developed, which called for reducing fuels within a 400-meter buffer around structures.

The Forest Service discovered the e-mailed comments were generated through a commercial company - and when it attempted to respond to the e-mail found that many of the addresses weren't valid, or that some people didn't know their names were on the list and asked to be removed.

While the agency didn't provide an exact number of faulty addresses to the court, Molloy said “the possibility that some of the responses were invalid makes less persuasive the argument that 98 percent of the public opposed the project.”


Molloy also took the Forest Service to task for its decision to exclude some members of the public from a press conference last summer. While the agency isn't required under the law and people don't have a statutory right to attend, Molloy said the decision “was not a wise political move.”

“When this type of act takes place, the message the Forest Service sends, whether intended or not, is that it will tolerate participation only to the extent the law requires and that after such point is reached, disagreeing voices are not welcome. They are excluded.

“Such a message is at odds with the intent of Congress. It is at odds with public courtesy. And, it is at odds with participatory transparent public involvement.”

Ravalli County Attorney George Corn represented a group of local government, businesses and private individuals who intervened in the case.

“We're very pleased with the judge's decision,” Corn said Wednesday. “This is a really important project. It's important to see that something like this can go through and the Forest Service can get started implementing it.”

Local residents and government officials have worked hard to develop fire planning documents and do fuel reduction work on private lands, he said.

“That all would have been for naught, given the land configuration we have here in this county,” Corn said.

Bitterroot National Forest Supervisor Dave Bull said many in the agency were surprised at the speed of Molloy's decision.

“Most of us have our jaws on the floor - in a good way,” Bull said.

The judge's decision means the agency will move forward in selling the first of three projects that will be offered. The stewardship contract was advertised Wednesday with the hope that on-the-ground work will start right after Labor Day, Bull said.

While the process has been contentious at times, Bull said, using the process outlined by the Healthy Forests Restoration Act shaved off about 100 days from what it normally takes to complete a project requiring an environmental impact statement.

The environmental groups can still appeal the decision to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.

Matthew Koehler, the WildWest Institute's executive director, said that group is currently reviewing its options, which include an appeal.

“We were disappointed,” Koehler said.

The groups supported a project that would have thinned about 1,600 acres within a quarter-mile of structures, which Koehler said makes more sense considering the limited resources and funding of the Forest Service.

The agency's current plans to harvest larger logs first will result in higher fire severity in the area for up to three years, according the Forest Service's own estimates, Koehler said.

“We feel that just doesn't make any sense,” he said.

The area still bears scars from past logging activities and the last remaining pockets of uncut timber are important for a variety of wildlife species, Koehler said.

Koehler said the groups have an “honest disagreement” with the Forest Service about how the areas should be managed.

“The courts are a good place to handle disagreements,” he said.
 
BHR,

I think actually its your buddies that were dealt the setback...

FRIENDS OF THE BITTERROOT.

Freaking 'rooters.
 
Buzz doesn't like Friends cause he is a company man,Forest Service all the way baby.

The sale in question was already surveyed, trees marked and readied for logging long before any lawsuit. The forest Service was going to log this area with or without envirmental concerns. They have area's marked way off the main East Fork area. This may,or may not help stop any fires in the area from getting to the developments in the East Fork in the future. They missed the fires of 2000. 300,000 + acres burnt then and the fire fighters were successfull in putting out fires that threatened homes in the East Fork.
Houses burnt down but Forest Service backfires set were the culprits there.
I think that it's more a ploy for the forest Service to get access to the timber, and a way of getting the cut out. They've marked lots of old growth tree's that have nothing to do with fire supression and everything to do with money.

Sad thing is the area in question wasn't logged during the mayhem of the 60's and 70's because you can see it all from the hwy. Everything else in the area has been logged in this area except the wilderness. So when heavy snows come and force the elk out of the wilderness they won't have any security cover, which translates into less big bulls. Plain and simple, have the logging at the expence of Big Bulls. People will cry when permits come but without security you won't have older bulls.
 
Shoots-straight,

IMO, the best type of fuel reduction already happened in the East Fork. A couple mistakes were made though in 2000: 1. the fires shouldnt have been put out until the snow flew 2. not a single penny or man hour should have been spent trying to protect structures.

Other than that, it was a great success.
 
Buzz,

Remember the article that you posted from the kook Matt Koehler? This is what his group is about... "They didn't have a problem with work completed near structures, the environmentalists said, but were opposed to commercial logging." Is that what your about? Most of the "commercial" trees to be logged are dead and dying fir trees. Few more appeals by Matt and Company and they'll be rotten and worthless anyway. Your taxes hard at work.

BTW Buzz, aren't you the one that was big on your forest service buddies spending the summer in a lookout tower spotting fires.....and then get paid to sit around and watch them burn? Again your taxes hard at work.
 
BHR,

Have you been drinking this afternoon?

Not sure where you came up with the "my buddies spending the summer in lookout tower spotting fires...and then get paid to sit around and watch them burn" but it wasnt me that said anything of the sort.

What I dont think makes sense is to bust your ass putting out fire all summer and lighting prescribed fires in the same areas come fall...that doesnt make sense.

Also, please post a quote from me where I ever said I was opposed to logging.

I'll save you the effort...I never have stated it.

I think you're either losing your mind or have already lost it.
 
Interesting...USFS gets sued over HFR/WUI projects and as far as I'm aware the ones in our office don't even get a protest letter. Might have something to do with theirs removing trees and most of ours deal with brush... ;) 'Course I do love to see the bullhog in action on the Junipers. Are they good for anything??? I don't even like gin :D
 
Shoots-straight,

IMO, the best type of fuel reduction already happened in the East Fork. A couple mistakes were made though in 2000: 1. the fires shouldnt have been put out until the snow flew 2. not a single penny or man hour should have been spent trying to protect structures.





I think I'm aggreeing with Buzz :eek:
 
Buzz,

When you use essays from guy's like Koehler who oppose all commercial logging to make your points........one could easily mistake your true intentions. About a year ago you posted how valuable fire lookouts are and that you have a lot of Forest Service friends that man them. I won't look it up, but what is the point in maning them if you don't intend to put out any spot fires? Big difference between a fire and what it can do in the mid, hot, dry summer, or a controlled burn in the spring or fall. You should know that. In the summer, put them out if they are small, or lettem burn if they get out of control or are in the wilderness. Anything more or less is a waste of time and money IMO.

Shoot's Straight,

So if the rest of the East Fork trees went up in smoke, what would that do for elk and other wildlife security cover? Do you consider dead trees, OLD GROWTH?
 
BHR,

I love What If logic. Here's some what if's,

What if the Forest Circus I mean Service hadn't logged, and slash piled all the debris in the 60's and 70's, would 300,000 acres burnt in 2000? Most the intense burns occurred on heavy management areas

What if the fires hadn't burnt in 2000, would we be debating the logging in the East Fork right now?

What if frogs had wings, could they fly?

o if the rest of the East Fork trees went up in smoke, what would that do for elk and other wildlife security cover? Do you consider dead trees, OLD GROWTH?

The rest of the East Fork won't go up in smoke thanks to the fires of 1961, which left a area of 30,000 acres resistant to fires The wilderness which is left, had thousands of acers burnt in 2000, but not complete, area's which didn't have the saw burnt in mosaic patterns, with lots of cover still available to elk. Burnt trees do indeed give elk cover. Go in and remove them and all the others,(green trees to pay for the logging). Leaves no cover.

Logging could have been done for years after the fires, the problem Forest Service was more interested in getting the remaining green trees. They had more burnt trees than thay could have cut.
 
I know Shoot's Straight, all logging is bad. If we use your logic, hunting should be banned too. Hunters all but eliminated most big game species in the 1800 and early 19 hundreds, so it should not be allowed anymore? Forest Circus has made some mistakes in the past so we should not allow any form of logging there anymore, right?

BTW I've seen mosaic patterns in logged areas as well as uncut forests. Theres a lot of factors at play here that you are leaving out. You forgot to answer whether or not you consider dead trees old growth also.
 
BHR,

You've been drinking even earlier today. The only value I can see in a lookout tower is to rent to the public for a scenic place to stay (and for historical purposes).

Ever heard of airplanes? Them new fangled contraptions work real good for spotting fires.

There are a handful of lookout towers scattered around that make sense to man, but very few anymore with the number of roads, people, and aircraft.

Do you know how few lookouts are currently manned? If you're worrying about saving some gs-2 wages for paying someone for a couple months to man a lookout, you're really worrying about the mice while the elephants are running you over.

I also dont know a single lookout worker...none. The only lookout I ever really talked to much was Virginia Vincent, the lookout on Stark Mountain for over 20 years. For the record, she did an outstanding job.

Also, if fires hadnt been suppressed for 100 years and allowed to burn when they started, it wouldnt make one damn bit of difference if you let a fire burn in August with 50 mph winds and RH's of 2%.

When exactly do you think most fires happened before people starting messing with fire cycles? I can tell you that there likely werent many lightning caused fires in October, November or December. You dont suppose that those dry thunderstorms so common to the interior west in July and August ever caused a fire do you?

If you want "prescribed natural fire" you run through the woods in June, July, and August with a drip torch (or let lightning fires burn)...not in October, November, and December.

Your arguments once again prove how totally clueless you are about what it takes, and will take, to properly manage a forest. Its people like you with your out-of-touch thought processes that makes it impossible for land managers to do their jobs. They're forced to pander to people without a clue...and thats unfortunate.
 
BHR,

Again your having trouble comprehending what you read.

Slower, this time read slower, I said "
Logging could have been done for years after the fires, the problem Forest Service was more interested in getting the remaining green trees. They had more burnt trees than thay could have cut.
which means I'm not against logging. Hello.

The Forest Service has made mistakes in the past, one could safely say that they made more mistakes than they didn't. With that said, is it safe to say that right now they manage more for politics than science. I'd bet the later.

If you care to go for a drive some day we will look over the burns of 2000, you'll see very few if any mosiac pattern burns, but more of a complete burn in the logged areas, and anything but a destroyed forest where logging hadn't occurred.

Buzz, again I find myself aggreeing with your post. For a forest Service employee you sound alittle anti company. Tell me it isn't so! Getting close to retirement?
 
Buzz,

Was there a hundred years of fire surpression prior to 1910? Was that a bad fire year caused by mans manipulation of nature? Big fires happened in the past with and without mans help.

You where the one that felt it was OK to spend tax dollars wrapping the Hells Half Acre lookout in advance of a fire in 2004 even though it overlooks millions of acres of wilderness where natural fires should not be surpressed. And yet you do not favor spend one man hour or dollar protecting structures in the East Fork. Some people might disagree with you. I'm just trying to find some consistancy in your logic.

They also did a controlled burn near Como Lake in May a couple years ago that just about got out of hand. Do that in June- August and it would have for sure. Remember the trouble they got into several years ago in New Mexico with an badly timed controlled burn? Good thing the Forest Service has a FEW people working for them with some common sense.
 
shoots-straight,

I'm not anti-company, just for common sense in management. Most of the FS thinks much the same way in regard to fire, logging, etc. Correct Management can happen, but people like BHR...make it difficult.

No, I'm not close to retirement.

BHR,

Yep, I say save some of the historic structures, even if it does over-look wilderness. That was the intention of look-outs...detecting fires in remote areas. We should have a constant reminder of the mistakes made in the past regarding stomping out every fire that happened.

Also, much of the 1910 burn had NOT burned for a very long time (over 100 years). Most of it was over-mature White Pine.

For the record, most lodgepole stands (most of Yellowstone) have fire frequencies well in excess of 100 years...some lodgepole stands in the Bob Marshall havent burned for 300+ years. Stand replacement wildfire is natural in LP types.

Is there any lodgepole in the Eastfork?

No, I dont think the FS should spend money saving homes built in the woods. If you're smart enough to make the decision to live in the sticks...you better be smart enough to figure out that a forest fire will burn your damn house down if one gets started when you live in the woods.

If you dont want to assume the risk...move to town or buy some good insurance.
 
Shoots Straight,

I'm more interested in how the F. S. and the tree huggers operate today. Crying over spilt milk is a waste of time. Koehler is opposed to commercial logging of green trees, bug killed dead trees, and burnt dead trees. That's a fact. Block it from being logged in one place, it will end up having to come from another. Why not allow it to take place where it makes the most sense, and spend your effort protecting places where it doesn't?
 
"I'm not anti-company, just for common sense in management. Most of the FS thinks much the same way in regard to fire, logging, etc. Correct Management can happen, but people like BHR...make it difficult."

This is good stuff. The whole topic started with an article about some tree huggers law suit getting shut down. The F. S. made a "common sense" desicion on how to manage the East Fork and the huggers sued them....shoots straight backed the huggers over the F. S......and Buzz say's I'm the one making it difficult for the Forest Service to do their job!
 
It is fun to watch BHR gettin' spanked and then he changes the subject to some other direction hoping nobody notices how blistered he was on the last tangent....

LMAO....
 

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