Bush Administration VS. Bull trout...

[BuzzH]

Looks like Shrub and his administration are doing a great job of keeping the courts busy while systematically destroying YOUR public wildlife...all the while attempting to by-pass the current laws and regulations they're supposed to uphold...

GRANTS PASS, Ore. (AP) -- Two Montana environmental groups have filed a federal lawsuit challenging the Bush administration's decision to cut habitat protection for bull trout by 90 percent.

They contend the administration relied on uncertain local protections, ignored economic benefits of restoring fish, and did not consider the best science.

The Alliance for the Wild Rockies and Friends of the Wild Swan, two Montana environmental groups filed the lawsuit Tuesday in U.S. District Court in Portland. It seeks an injunction to compel Fish and Wildlife to designate adequate habitat for bull trout, allowing the bull trout to be removed from threatened and endangered species lists.

This is the latest development in a continuing fight between environmental groups and the Bush administration over enforcement of the Endangered Species Act, particularly the provision that calls for earmarking habitat critical to getting a species off the threatened or endangered species lists.

Fish and Wildlife spokesman Phil Carroll said he could not comment on a pending lawsuit, but the agency believes its limited budget is better spent on getting more declining species on the lists than on designating critical habitat for species already protected.

Bull trout are found around the Pacific Northwest and Northern Rockies in clear, cold mountain streams and lakes. Biologists say their numbers have declined dramatically over the past century due to logging, roadbuilding, dams, mining, grazing and urban development.

 

[Calif. Hunter]

Bull Trout are one of my brother's assigned species...he is with USF&W in Wenatchee, WA, so I'm sure he is actively involved in this issue.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

I hope you are not on the tax payers dime when you are posting all your propoganda. The Alliance for the Wild Rockies doesn't give two shits for the Bull Trout. This isn't about Bull Trout anyway and you know it. These extremist groups are the ones who are keeping the courts busy. Check out the list of afiliated groups of this organization. It's a who's who of who will be blocking the wolf delisting. Delisting which you CLAIM to support.

 

[BuzzH]

BHR,

If you dont believe bull trout habitat has been reduced along with total bull trout populations...then I guess the debate is over in your mind.

My family has fished the Swan, Clearwater, and Blackfoot river and many of its tributaries for 50+ years. Theres no denying their numbers have tanked in that amount of time...severly tanked. Apparently the USFWS agrees, as bull trout are now threatened and there is only one or two lakes in Montana where its legal to keep bulls.

How is Bush going to help get them delisted when he's slashing the USFWS budgets to fund his quaqmire?

Why does the Bush Administration struggle with these issues? They dont expect to be sued when they fail to protect 90% of the available habitat?

I wonder what would happen to other species, like say bighorn sheep, if we decided to take 90% of their available habitat away? Do you think your odds of drawing a tag would increase? Do you think they'd be listed?

The issue isnt about who is suing, the issue is about Shrubs administration and their lack of knowledge and support of the ESA...and their total disregard for OUR public wildlife.

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

Protection to you and the Alliance for the Wild Rockies means no more logging period in any drainage that contains bull trout. Could sediments from wild fire contribute to the decline as well as logging? Doesn't all the wilderness areas in N. W. Montana and Glacier Park account for more than 10% of bull trout habitat? Not to mention all the roadless areas that will never be logged due to simple economics. What about all the logging roads that you and other "stud" hunters like MattK like to access to hunt? How did they get there in the first place? Why would guys like you hunt compromised land like that? I'd figure stud hunters like you two would spend more of you time hunting the Big W.

 

[BuzzH]

BHR,

Thats a nice reply, way to dance around the issue and fail to answer simple questions. You're pretty good at that. I guess the truth is more than you can handle.

So, in your opinion wildlfires are the main reason for sedimentation and the unarguable fact that bull trout numbers have been on the skids for 50 years? Thats pretty choice Paul, it really is. If you're going to use that as the primary cause, you're going to have a pretty hard sell to the various agencies and experts involved in the bull trout issue. They're going to disagree with you on that, bigtime.

Also, you have to start understanding that the small amount of wilderness protection can not shoulder the majority of suitable habitat for ALL species. There has to be protections in place on more than just wilderness lands. I've never seen any documentation that 10% of the total bull trout habitat in Montana is in Glacier and the wilderness areas. I'll take your word for it, though for the sake of argument.

Do you honestly believe that protecting 10% of the available habitat will ever get bull trout numbers above acceptable population numbers so they can be delisted?

As to the roaded areas I hunt, all are gated within 6 miles of a major highway. I typically hunt from 4-8 miles behind them and would prefer the roads be obliterated rather than just gated. I agree that just gating roads doesnt go far enough, I doubt I'd even see the 4-5 hunters I see in a season there if the roads were obliterated.

Down here in Wyoming I do hunt the wilderness pretty much exclusively for elk and mule deer. They dont gate many roads here.

 

[MattK]

BHR- I know some of the gates were put in place because of water quality issues and erosion. As to being "studly" I really don't believe I am. I've never been described as such and probably never will. However, you bring up a good point. It doesn't take a studly person to hunt away from the road and drag their game out. It takes a person with a little fortitude maybe but not "studly". I'll bet even you could hunt away from a road if you put your mind to it. There are a lot of people who are just plain too lazy. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind, it makes for better hunting opportunities for me.

 

[BigHornRam]

Dance around the issue? Please! The issue is, that you and groups like AWR are mad at Bush for trying to take one of your best arrows from your quiver. The whole issue is about shutting down logging completely. Even common sense logging projects get stopped or delayed by the use of animals such as the bull trout, or grizzly. Wild fires are one reason for sedimentation--- never said it was the main reason.

I know a guy who was ask to statistically analize some grizzly data in reguards to the effect of logging around Y. P.. The results didn't come out the way the researcher was hoping it would. Some logging actually had a positive effect on the bear population. The researcher ask my freind to change his analysis. He would'nt. The pin head got mad, made some threats about the future of his career, and ended up throughing the "study" in the garbage.

Cases like this go on all the time in your field.

You also danced around my question about who's dime your working on today. I thought the forest service was cracking down on employees who spent the day goofing off on the computer, instead of actually working. That would lead me to believe that you are one of those seasonal employees who spend the rest of the year living off of unemployment. Either way, it's still on my dime. Or maybe your like the dog humper on the Kifaru site that goes right for the welfare bucket?

 

[Ithaca 37]

BHR, You really should decide which side you're on--the resource extraction industries or the hunters and fishermen who want to protect wildlife habitat. I have to assume you're on the side of the resource extraction industries because all you ever do is defend their destruction of wildlife habitat. You must have been completely duped by them.

 

[BigHornRam]

MattK,

I'm not opposed to gating some roads. I am opposed to selfish people like you who want them all gated. It's not just "your " national forest, it's everyones. You need to learn to share. Not everyone wants to hunt the way MattK wants to hunt. Whats humorous is how conflicted you are. You oppose logging, but like to use logging roads to hunt off of that were put there for----logging of which you oppose. You are upset with the mills that close down and lay off all their workers because they can no longer get logs to mill because people like you oppose logging---- which cause the mill to shut down. Crazy!

As for me and where I like to hunt? I like the wilderness areas best. No atvs, no clear cuts to hunt in, pack it in - pack it out, and little competion from studs like you.

 

[BigHornRam]

Hey IT,

I know this is an impossible concept for you to comprehend, but here goes anyway. You can actually be on both sides. Resource extraction and for quality wildlife habitat.

 

[BuzzH]

Paul,

You're really a simpleton.

What Bush is doing is costing you mega-bucks and what he's doing is simply denying the facts, the science, and the truth about many of these issues.

Go ahead and push away the undeniable facts of the bull trouts decline and the degradation of their habitat. Dont protect but 10% of whats left.

I can tell you this for a fact, in the end you'll pay even MORE. While Shrub waltzes through his second term with the blinders pulled down snuggly on his pin-head, the problems associated with Theatened and Endangered species will continue to get worse.

That will assure that in the future, more expensive and drastic measures will be taken to correct the problems that would be an inexpensive and easy fix today. Care for any examples or would you just deny that too?

The issue isnt about stopping logging, its about keeping bull trout off the Endangered Species list.

So, Paul, lets hear you plans for helping bull trout...please keep in mind that you're endorsing only protecting 10% of the critical habitat....This should be good.

Oh, and hey Paul, you're right about the NF's belonging to all of us. I dont think that asking for a 50-50 split on access is asking too much. Currently there are many,many,many thousands more acres of non-wilderness public lands than there are wilderness lands. What are you bitching about? Also, if you cant find some easy access on the 380,000 miles of FS roads in the West, well I dont know what to say. Also note that less than 5% of the public owns atv's but they want access to 100% of the public lands...How about we set aside 5% of the NF to them and close off the rest? That seems fair to me.

Finally, the gated lands I hunt are directly a result of Plum Creek Timber Company...in cooperation with the DNRC, MTFWP, USFWS, and the USFS. Direct your comments of opposition to road closures and the unfairness of it all to those individuals...all I did was support their decisions based on science, facts, studies, etc. etc. etc. So did a vast majority of the public who took the time to make their comments part of the public record....

Have a nice day.

 

[ELKCHSR]

OH Boy!!! OH Boy!!!
It's back to the extraction industries being the big bad guy's of the world.
I will wade back into this again, with any one that is against the extraction industry.
I will bring it up again, why is it that every one of us use all of the benefits of the extraction industies but there are a few, and fortunately it is getting to be less all of the time, that still have to beat the drums against these industries.
I think I remember a passage about being the first to cast a stone, I will say it again, until I see you guy's giving up your modern conviniences and going back to 100% of what you preach, then I will hold stock in what you say, other wise, it really holds no weight and means nothing.
But I guess it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks and we are all creatures of habit, so these old drums are just bad habits that they can't break....

 

[BuzzH]

Cheese,

You dont have a clue.

There is noboby that is in denial more about the truth and resource extraction than you.

There is no way that the NF system can sustain logging at the rate it happened from the 60's through the 80's. NF lands were severly over-harvested, thats a fact. The SHORTEST rotation ages in much of the interior West is 60-80 years, thats on the absolute best sights and typically lodgepole. Douglas-fir, Larch, and P-pine typically have rotation ages of 120+ years. You cannot sustain that type of harvest along with the way that modern mills gobble timber with rotation ages of 120+ years. Cant do it, and thats why many of the mills have disappeared. Harvest exceeded growth, simple as that. Check into why John Mumma was sent packing...

Also keep in mind that the FS is obligated by law to provide more than just extractable resources.

You dont understand Natural Resource Policy or the laws that YOUR elected officials passed. The various agencies have an obligation to more than just resource extraction, like it or not, thats the way it works.

I think they do a pretty good job of balancing everything.

 

[ELKCHSR]

My goodness...
Still have major issues with yourself I see.
You maybe should see some one about that anger issue.
I for one, hope that one day, maybe even some day, that you will learn true peace and can come to terms and grips with those things you have and can't control.
My heart goes out to you and I will burn some sage and say a prayer for you on my next sweat...

 

[BuzzH]

Cheese,

Please provide a translator for your rambling thought process.

Way to not address the issue...keep that head in the sand.

 

[ELKCHSR]

I see you jumped right on in there and addressed it by immediatly attacking me unprovoked....
I do think you need some new material though, you are stagnated in your own hate and disgust, and can't seem to come up wit any thing new.
Besides, if I didn't make any sence, then why is it you are all over it like flies on doody
Or is it that it goes against every thing you could possibly believe in to have some one say a little prayer for you and put out an offering to help... hmmmmm...
I should also say to you....
Merry Christmas....

 

[BigHornRam]

Buzz,

What's costing me mega bucks is all the gummint employees who spend the day goofing off and pumping their agenda on the computer. If they canned all the dead wood and gave a raise to the ones that actually work we would have a lot more productivity for a lot less dollars spent. Who do you work for? The forest service or AWR?

Matt and IT,

What do you guy's think about gummint employees wasting our tax money by goofing off on the computer all day?

 

[ELKCHSR]

I do understand about over harvesting and underharvesting to a very good degree, no matter how much you like to down play that fact, and there are an awful lot of places that I hunt and hike thru that are way over due for any harvesting.
Of course, I know where you are coming from, it is better to just burn it all up than to put it into the American economy for use.
While that helps me an awful lot, it doesn't help with the actual $$$ moving.
Mine and your trades are nothing but a direct drain on the American economy with our own self justified reasonings.
But to take a raw resource and put it into use is some thing that adds wealth to a country, even if some one is making a profit from the endevour.
Simple economics 101 would teach that. You can close your eyes to that fact all you want, but the trueth of the matter is still there and no amount of brow beating and name calling can or will change that.
Besides, I thought that this place was supposed to be more civil, but then again as usual, the rules don't count for Buzz. He is supposed to be the exception to the rule, well at least Buzz and Elkchsr know the truth and that is really all that matters in the end...

 

[BuzzH]

Cheese,

Merry Christmas to you to.

BHR, still dodging the questions???