Bulls for Billionaires take 2 (Wyoming edition)

[idahohuntr]

What is the bare minimum an outfitter is required to do while still being classified as “guiding” a hunter? If they don’t even have to be with you, I would gladly pay to just get access to the tag- they can hang around at camp (or home) for all I care, would rather do things myself.

Below is from the WY outfitters presentation at the meeting...so they will try to prevent 'bare minimum' outfitters. But I agree...will be curious what they can legally require and whether someone can figure out a work around.

If the WWTF moves forward with a proposal to the Legislature to seek a “Outfitter Draw”, legislation would need to be written, to give the Wyoming State Board of Outfitters the ability to write regulations and insure no one obtains a Wyoming Outfitter License, strictly to assist non-residents to obtain licenses without any intent of using outfitting services.

 

[Treeshark]

Interesting info Idaho, thanks- looks like I’m not the first to consider that.

Virtual outfitting, I can see it now. If they get the job done, who cares where they are located? Offer pack-outs and remote hunter monitoring, would be a sweet setup.

 

[willy]

Unlike most here, I have some empathy for them. They find the clients and book years in advance and then in May 20 have to replace 30-50% of clients with new clients that drew. When a large part of your income is structure to a 3mo window, the ability to fill that window and set a budget is important. It would be hard to have some NR call in August and try to get a spot after they realize how much work it is. That said, I don’t think they should get special treatment, more than the Wilderness rule at least.

Outfitting isn't a career that is matter of life and death. The government subsidizes farming but it does produce what everyone needs to live. Subsidizing outfitters is nuts. If they don't like the situation/pay, there are other jobs/careers) out there. People bitch how much certain careers/jobs make compared to their own. Nothing is stopping them/anyone from quitting what they are doing now and going after those "big bucks" jobs. There is a place for outfitters but not everyone can or should be an outfitter that is. Having the government artificially create a larger market for them is just wrong.

 

[BuzzH]

Below is from the WY outfitters presentation at the meeting...so they will try to prevent 'bare minimum' outfitters. But I agree...will be curious what they can legally require and whether someone can figure out a work around.

If the WWTF moves forward with a proposal to the Legislature to seek a “Outfitter Draw”, legislation would need to be written, to give the Wyoming State Board of Outfitters the ability to write regulations and insure no one obtains a Wyoming Outfitter License, strictly to assist non-residents to obtain licenses without any intent of using outfitting services.

Am I the only one that thinks that WOGA has become totally unhinged wanting authority to write its own regulations to control a public asset?

 

[Gerald Martin]

Am I the only one that thinks that WOGA has become totally unhinged wanting authority to write its own regulations to control a public asset?

Pretty sure foxes began dreaming about guard duty ever since they saw the first hen house…

 

[cahunter805]

Outfitting isn't a career that is matter of life and death. The government subsidizes farming but it does produce what everyone needs to live. Subsidizing outfitters is nuts. If they don't like the situation/pay, there are other jobs/careers) out there. People bitch how much certain careers/jobs make compared to their own. Nothing is stopping them/anyone from quitting what they are doing now and going after those "big bucks" jobs. There is a place for outfitters but not everyone can or should be an outfitter that is. Having the government artificially create a larger market for them is just wrong.

+1!! There are many industries that do get government subsidies but I’m not aware of any of them that the government does all the leg work for them just so they can make more money.

 

[LopeHunter]

I was with you until this comment, it’s total BS. There is no way an outfitter actually took the time to respond to you

Seriously, for all their complaining about tags/declining industry etc I’ve never encountered such a flakey group of individuals.

It’s 2022 you are part of the service industry, if you don’t have a website, cellphone, email and respond to messages within a timely fashion (1-2 days), even if it’s just to say “we don’t offer that particular service” STFU.

I’ve tried to set up llama rentals, drop camps, fly-ins, and even fully guided trips. Of maybe the 50 outfitters in 4 states I’ve contacted maybe 5 ever got back to me…

In AK I literally went with a pilot because 18months out for a bear hunt he was the only one who answered the phone, and that was only because hunting is a side thing and his main business is sightseeing tours and therefore he has a receptionist.

Anyway… I’m sure I’m just being an A-hole but I feel like a lot of outfitter woes are self inflected.

I attempted in 2020 to get an outfitter to pack me in for a Montana mountain tag for late season in bottom half of the unit then help pack out camp and a goat, if filled the tag. Contacted seven outfitters which are located around that unit. Most responded but no interest. I did find an outfitter that dropped me early season in the upper half of the unit. Price never was the issue and agree that seems a lot of "outfitters" are not hustling to pick up extra work. Definitely self-inflicted to have below average customer service skills and not be hustling. Just my impression reinforced seven times.

 

[Deleted member 28227]

I attempted in 2020 to get an outfitter to pack me in for a Montana mountain tag for late season in bottom half of the unit then help pack out camp and a goat, if filled the tag. Contacted seven outfitters which are located around that unit. Most responded but no interest. I did find an outfitter that dropped me early season in the upper half of the unit. Price never was the issue and agree that seems a lot of "outfitters" are not hustling to pick up extra work. Definitely self-inflicted to have below average customer service skills and not be hustling. Just my impression reinforced seven times.

I looked up an outfitter in a unit I was hunting, CO assigns them compartments. I told him I knew were his camp was and asked him, if I get an elk down and pack it to the trail on the way to your camp, and then inreach you, would you pack out the elk, I'm fine waiting a day or two till you are putting guys in or taking them out of the field. I'll pack out my gear and walk, I offered $1000.

No dice.

End up seeing him, and his string of horses in the parking lot a couple months later. I was packing out a bull and he was loading up his horses after dropping off some guys.

I've got to imagine that would have been the easiest $1000 that guy would have made all year.

 

[SAJ-99]

Outfitting isn't a career that is matter of life and death. The government subsidizes farming but it does produce what everyone needs to live. Subsidizing outfitters is nuts. If they don't like the situation/pay, there are other jobs/careers) out there. People bitch how much certain careers/jobs make compared to their own. Nothing is stopping them/anyone from quitting what they are doing now and going after those "big bucks" jobs. There is a place for outfitters but not everyone can or should be an outfitter that is. Having the government artificially create a larger market for them is just wrong.

Most jobs aren't a matter of life and death. Not even farming. Justifying payments to farmers makes it sound like a "My subsides are justified, but yours are a waste of money". I don't know what you do, but most industries receive some type of support from the government.

Now back to my point. I don't think they should get subsides at all, but it is a difficult business to manage around. The product (hunting permits) has more demand than supply. Image if an airline had this problem. It sold tickets on an airplane for a flight to a very popular destination. The number of people that wanted to take the flight was 3x the number that could fit. Then they did a drawing on who gets to go and who doesn't. The airline would have to scramble to find new customers. That has a cost. Best idea I can come up with for Outfitters is a have a waiting list. Flights aren't like that because they simply set a market price and supply meets demand. In this case it is a public resource so price (of permit) is set ahead of time and remains fixed.

Every industry has those that complain and think they should get special treatment because life is hard or whatever. That mentality is practically the new American way. Regardless, with all the threads on point creep and how to change the draws, I was simply saying it does cause problems for outfitters too. So the question is do you want fair chance for everyone or do you want some predictability or do you just want to hear people complaining about it

 

[TOGIE]

Most jobs aren't a matter of life and death. Not even farming. Justifying payments to farmers makes it sound like a "My subsides are justified, but yours are a waste of money". I don't know what you do, but most industries receive some type of support from the government.

Now back to my point. I don't think they should get subsides at all, but it is a difficult business to manage around. The product (hunting permits) has more demand than supply. Image if an airline had this problem. It sold tickets on an airplane for a flight to a very popular destination. The number of people that wanted to take the flight was 3x the number that could fit. Then they did a drawing on who gets to go and who doesn't. The airline would have to scramble to find new customers. That has a cost. Best idea I can come up with for Outfitters is a have a waiting list. Flights aren't like that because they simply set a market price and supply meets demand. In this case it is a public resource so price (of permit) is set ahead of time and remains fixed.

Every industry has those that complain and think they should get special treatment because life is hard or whatever. That mentality is practically the new American way. Regardless, with all the threads on point creep and how to change the draws, I was simply saying it does cause problems for outfitters too. So the question is do you want fair chance for everyone or do you want some predictability or do you just want to hear people complaining about it

i feel like the analogy would fit better if you said under some weird scenario the US government holds a lottery for permits to go visit a certain hotel in the US virgin islands every year, because for some reason only 100 people can go to that hotel. then due to corporate airline lobbying the government dictates that 50 of those permittees are required to use United Airlines to get there. flights would sell out regardless, because supply demand already figured out how many people are trying to go to the US virgin islands every year, but just now 50 visiting a specific hotel, of the many tourists visiting the hundreds of hotels would now have to use united.

why are outfitters booking people that don't have tags? is 4 months too short of a time period to book those that drew? i don't see how this could be so difficult for them. they wouldn't have vacancies if they didn't book people who hadn't drawn tags. just wait to book people after the draw and plan your chit in the 4-5 months until hunting season. there's not even anything to plan, nothing changes except the name of the person coming. the food, the tents, the spots, all the same year over year, just new boots.

i just don't see the difficulty.

 

[SAJ-99]

why are outfitters booking people that don't have tags? is 4 months too short of a time period to book those that drew? i don't see how this could be so difficult for them. they wouldn't have vacancies if they didn't book people who hadn't drawn tags. just wait to book people after the draw and plan your chit in the 4-5 months until hunting season. there's not even anything to plan, nothing changes except the name of the person coming. the food, the tents, the spots, all the same year over year, just new boots.

Easy questions
They book one and two years ahead because no one has a tag until the draw date. I personally think four months is enough time, but my opinion isn't relevant. You are asking them to work for 5 months trying to find clients, then the draw comes and 50% don't draw so they have to work for 4 more moths to find new clients. For most, this is probably not their only job. And most of the new business is done at trade shows which run in the early part of the year before the draw.

Your analogy is mostly hyperbole. I agree they shouldn't get a set allocation. I really don't think that would take care of the large problem of too much demand and not enough supply. But if the odds for 3pt go from >100% in 2021 to <50% there are problems that will require changes in how a business is run. Like I said, I don't favor giving them anything special, just thinking how to I would adapt to run the business if it were me.

 

[cahunter805]

Most jobs aren't a matter of life and death. Not even farming. Justifying payments to farmers makes it sound like a "My subsides are justified, but yours are a waste of money". I don't know what you do, but most industries receive some type of support from the government.

Now back to my point. I don't think they should get subsides at all, but it is a difficult business to manage around. The product (hunting permits) has more demand than supply. Image if an airline had this problem. It sold tickets on an airplane for a flight to a very popular destination. The number of people that wanted to take the flight was 3x the number that could fit. Then they did a drawing on who gets to go and who doesn't. The airline would have to scramble to find new customers. That has a cost. Best idea I can come up with for Outfitters is a have a waiting list. Flights aren't like that because they simply set a market price and supply meets demand. In this case it is a public resource so price (of permit) is set ahead of time and remains fixed.

Every industry has those that complain and think they should get special treatment because life is hard or whatever. That mentality is practically the new American way. Regardless, with all the threads on point creep and how to change the draws, I was simply saying it does cause problems for outfitters too. So the question is do you want fair chance for everyone or do you want some predictability or do you just want to hear people complaining about it

The problem with your analogy is that the airlines don’t use public resources to make their money.

Choosing to run an outfitting business is a personal choice that many have made. Some choose to outfit on public lands, some have private property they own and many outfitters lease properties to hunt. All of these choices are a personal decision by the outfitters and how they decide to run their business.

All of the necessary risks and rewards of trying to run a business should always be weighed and reevaluated after every year.

Why should any outfitter be given special treatment just because they are trying to make a living off publicly owned wild animals? If they are having trouble booking clients or finding areas to lease/hunt then maybe they should change their tactics or business model.

With todays social media platforms I find it very hard to believe that outfitters can book clients or even fill last minute cancellations or spots. If they have to discount the prices then so be it.

 

[SAJ-99]

The problem with your analogy is that the airlines don’t use public resources to make their money.

Until they go bankrupt and need to be bailed out.

I get your point and you are correct. I jut couldn't think of a better way to explain. Again, I think it is the changes from point creep causing the problems- for everyone.

 

[TOGIE]

Your analogy is mostly hyperbole. I agree they shouldn't get a set allocation. I really don't think that would take care of the large problem of too much demand and not enough supply. But if the odds for 3pt go from >100% in 2021 to <50% there are problems that will require changes in how a business is run. Like I said, I don't favor giving them anything special, just thinking how to I would adapt to run the business if it were me.

i like hyperbole

i guess my other point i was trying to make is this: let the market work. honestly, i think the clients will come no matter what. there are enough people that want outfitters. execute the draw in may, and let the elbow shoving begin to book outfitters. who cares what point creep is doing, it doesn't matter who draws. i bet the percentage that want outfitters will be roughly the same year over year. the market should adapt to that percentage and compete for it.

if there aren't enough clients, then either supply/demand is out of whack, prices are just too high, or the public land hunting is just too good... or all of the above! let the market clean up the mess. (but welfare, right?)

i'm sure you agree. but i don't see how point creep matters, or in other words, unpredictability in drawing (edit: i don't see why it has to matter, if you stop booking in advance you fix your problem.... in theory..... in my head...). without facts to back me up, i think the ratio that want a guide, horse, and hot tent will be the same year over year, whether the general draw crept up 1.5 points or stayed where it was last year.

 

[idahohuntr]

Am I the only one that thinks that WOGA has become totally unhinged wanting authority to write its own regulations to control a public asset?

No. But after reviewing their presentation I can't imagine your blood pressure during the actual meeting...I didn't realize several out of state guide's groups presented the different ways they receive welfare in their respective state.

 

[SAJ-99]

i'm sure you agree. but i don't see how point creep matters, or in other words, unpredictability in drawing (edit: i don't see why it has to matter, if you stop booking in advance you fix your problem.... in theory..... in my head...). without facts to back me up, i think the ratio that want a guide, horse, and hot tent will be the same year over year, whether the general draw crept up 1.5 points or stayed where it was last year.

Yes. But like I said, I have some empathy for them. It is tough to run a business with such variability. I think they have to change the business model somehow. But like you, I say that in theory with nothing to back it up.

Here are the results for the NR Special PP draw- general tag, lowest point level not at 100% odds. This you would assume is NRs that make up a large portion of the outfitter group. You can see how it is impossible to plan ahead. This is a problem for GoHunt too. No way to even semi accurately predict the draw odds in 2023.

2018 1pt 97%
2019 1pt 17.6%
2020 2pt 37%
2021 2pt 22%
2022 3pt 45%

 

[wyoelkfan15]

Am I the only one that thinks that WOGA has become totally unhinged wanting authority to write its own regulations to control a public asset?

That's an interesting take considering the first public comment at the end of the task force's afternoon session yesterday started with:

"Outfitter set asides are not a subsidy, nor welfare. Residents don't hunt the Thorofare anyway, we should have garaunteed tags for that area every year."

I don't understand how the WOGA can't fill their rosters for the fall within 4-5 months after the draw takes place. The tag holders are known at that point, call the recipients and sell your product. Why does the public need to garauntee you business from a public resource, especially for that very unique area, much less allow a non-government organization write government statutes that effect the public. Give me a break...

 

[TOGIE]

Yes. But like I said, I have some empathy for them. It is tough to run a business with such variability. I think they have to change the business model somehow. But like you, I say that in theory with nothing to back it up.

Here are the results for the NR Special PP draw- general tag, lowest point level not at 100% odds. This you would assume is NRs that make up a large portion of the outfitter group. You can see how it is impossible to plan ahead. This is a problem for GoHunt too. No way to even semi accurately predict the draw odds in 2023.

2018 1pt 97%
2019 1pt 17.6%
2020 2pt 37%
2021 2pt 22%
2022 3pt 45%

so why bother planning ahead on if Old Man Jenkins from Maryland will get his tag after putting down a deposit? clearly, you can't predict it.

what they can predict is that 7500 NRs will log in on May 19 (or 18) with smiles on their faces. now sell them your product, some percentage of them will be seeking you out anyway.

plan the hunts, not the names. that eliminates what is apparently a big chunk of the variability for the business.

 

[Johnny Bravo]

Am I the only one that thinks that WOGA has become totally unhinged wanting authority to write its own regulations to control a public asset?

You're not....Just following along in the conversation here I'm sure if I were there I would get kicked out for calling them them what they are and pointing out this is all ridiculous. There has to be back room money things happening as this is one of the most absurd things I have seen in a while.

 

[BuzzH]

Easy questions
They book one and two years ahead because no one has a tag until the draw date. I personally think four months is enough time, but my opinion isn't relevant. You are asking them to work for 5 months trying to find clients, then the draw comes and 50% don't draw so they have to work for 4 more moths to find new clients. For most, this is probably not their only job. And most of the new business is done at trade shows which run in the early part of the year before the draw.

Your analogy is mostly hyperbole. I agree they shouldn't get a set allocation. I really don't think that would take care of the large problem of too much demand and not enough supply. But if the odds for 3pt go from >100% in 2021 to <50% there are problems that will require changes in how a business is run. Like I said, I don't favor giving them anything special, just thinking how to I would adapt to run the business if it were me.

They have a GF portal, special only to them, that they can get names, addresses, and phone numbers for every successful applicant.

There was testimony day before yesterday, that having to send letters, or make phone calls to the 1000+ successful NR general elk tag holders not booked for them was just too much work.

Life sucks when you have to actually work to find clients versus as Sy said, "sitting on the couch watching the Flintstones."

Some of these outfitters have probably seen every episode while waiting for their phones to ring...just sayin'.