Bulls for Billionaires take 2 (Wyoming edition)

[Gerald Martin]

Some of my childhood heros were outfitters/guides - Howard Copenhaver, Frank Linderman, etc. I don't hate outfitters, but as the resource dwindles relative to the demand, I don't know if the bolded is easy.

They want an expected continuity in their business, to know year to year what to expect, but even a continuity in tag allocation from year to year in the industry won't do that. What if someone wants to start an outfitting business? What of droughts, spring weather, or disease? I, the DIY hunter, want continuity too. I understand though, that that cannot happen in a very dynamic market of demand and critters.

In the last two years, as the outfitting industry has shown its blinding true colors in Montana - from guaranteed tags(unlimited in 2021) to the detriment of Montanans, to their leader bellyaching that he couldn't chase elk that had moved from private to public land in February, and more, I am at a loss as to whether or not that industry is even close to a net-good in Montana. I know there's good folks involved, but the concept seems to be a poison pill, always wanting more, an addict that got a taste. When we look down the road, we know that the demand will increase, and the pool of critters likely will not in a meaningful way. What do we think the industry will do as that squeeze occurs? I think past behavior gives us the best prediction - they will want more.

Yes. My experience based observation of the industry is that there are some incredible individuals and lots of flakes who will take any shortcut they can.

The good ones know how difficult it is to deliver consistent success in a fair chase manner and work way too hard for the money they make to ensure a client has a great experience regardless of filling a tag or not. Those folks have my respect.

The other segment of the industry tend to take shortcuts on the hunting and the business side in their efforts to convert the pursuit of animals into cash.

IMO, it isn’t usually the first example of outfitter who are consistently clamoring for special treatment for their industry.

 

[Carnage2011]

To be fair, Montana outfitters have it even tougher. Who wants to spend money to go shoot a 130” two year old mule deer?

Apparently the market is stronger than we think…. @Eric Albus and @Big Shooter always seem to be booked.

 

[cahunter805]

Sy is a snake and always will be! He will tell you one thing to your face and turn around and do the exact opposite just to satisfy his own personal agendas.
If his business or any other outfitter can’t survive on its own without handouts from the G&F department then that’s just to bad. There are plenty of outfitters booked years out due to their reputation and customer service.

Wyoming does a pretty darn good job managing its wildlife and resources for all to enjoy not just the outfitters and wealthy.

Thanks for the info Buzz.

 

[brownbear932008]

To be fair, Montana outfitters have it even tougher. Who wants to spend money to go shoot a 130” two year old mule deer?

Way to many people unfortunately is my experience.

 

[Ben Lamb]

@Big Fin coined the term.

It really does stick in a lot of people's craw. Especially those trying to sell the critters.

 

[Deleted member 16014]

Thank you Buzz for the summary and testimony. I caught bits and pieces via zoom. Will be listening today again as I can.

Another interesting note, Hicks flat out asked several Wyoming outfitters if they would take their 40% set aside in exchange for 90/10 DEA in the initial draw. All the ones I heard said no. That’s fine by me because I don’t care for that trade anyway. Just further proof they want their cake, and to eat it too…

 

[The Hedgehog]

Another interesting note, Hicks flat out asked several Wyoming outfitters if they would take their 40% set aside in exchange for 90/10 DEA in the initial draw. All the ones I heard said no. That’s fine by me because I don’t care for that trade anyway. Just further proof they want their cake, and to eat it too…

Larry! Dammit. Don’t do that.

 

[TOGIE]

I’ve tried to set up llama rentals, drop camps, fly-ins, and even fully guided trips. Of maybe the 50 outfitters in 4 states I’ve contacted maybe 5 ever got back to me…

but boy, if you fire off an e-mail or leave a voicemail politely inquiring if that public looking road is gated, or if there is access in one particular area you will get a nasty e-mail or voicemail back so soon it'll jump out of the computer/phone and slap you in the face.

 

[ignorethefringes]

It became apparent yesterday that outfitters want clients to come to them. They don't want to spend time actually haven't to find clients, waste money on advertising, or put effort into finding new clients.

. . .

. . . I think it's 100% reasonable for outfitters to make a living. . .

. . . They want an expected continuity in their business, to know year to year what to expect, . . .

Listen, I smoke a mean brisket. There are pictures on this website to prove it. I shouldn't have to advertise to try and sell that product. People should be lining up at my door to be exorbitant rates for my delicious smoked brisket. I should be able to make a living selling my brisket because I make it good, I enjoy making it, people enjoy eating it, and other people make a living selling smoked meat morsels. There are definitely no flaws to this argument.

 

[longtail55]

I was with you until this comment, it’s total BS. There is no way an outfitter actually took the time to respond to you

Seriously, for all their complaining about tags/declining industry etc I’ve never encountered such a flakey group of individuals.

It’s 2022 you are part of the service industry, if you don’t have a website, cellphone, email and respond to messages within a timely fashion (1-2 days), even if it’s just to say “we don’t offer that particular service” STFU.

I’ve tried to set up llama rentals, drop camps, fly-ins, and even fully guided trips. Of maybe the 50 outfitters in 4 states I’ve contacted maybe 5 ever got back to me…

In AK I literally went with a pilot because 18months out for a bear hunt he was the only one who answered the phone, and that was only because hunting is a side thing and his main business is sightseeing tours and therefore he has a receptionist.

Anyway… I’m sure I’m just being an A-hole but I feel like a lot of outfitter woes are self inflected.

TOTALLY AGREE AND SO CORRECT******* Ive had the same experience

 

[Hem]

Thanks Hem… wonder if this coffees gonna stain my shirt? Burned like hell comin out the nose though

View attachment 223522

In case my comment could be misconstrued, I respect the hell out of Buzzs opinion and his ability to articulate.
He doesn't mince his words. He also understands certain topics at a higher level than most( myself included).
So, yep, wouldn't have minded being a wall flower.
Keep hammering Buzz.

 

[Jdp010]

...

Yet, Sy also made it a point to mention that outfitters have their own GF portal they log into that they can use to apply for their clients. With that tool they can see applicants point totals to apply clients in parties etc.

I'm just curious if hunting fool, epic, and the other application services have those same GF portals they can use for applying their clients?

For some reason I doubt they have that kind of access.

Even if HF/Epic/WTA-TAGs don't have the outfitter portal, they don't need it in order to set up efficient point parties. They manage each person's logon so they can just logon to each individual account to view points.

I'm not saying they use their data to set up efficient point parties, but why wouldn't a smart businessperson do that? Most here would't let a buddy buddy waste points in an averaging state like WY.

I dislike both the teet-supported-outfitters and license application services so I won't take a side if they scramble.

 

[WYelker]

Sadly this was the direction it was always heading. I am not sure that many if anyone on that task force benefits from having good DIY opportunities. They all seems to have motivation and financial gain to shift the resource away from the public and towards commercialization.

I have not been able to watch the last 2 days of the task force, but I have been sending comments nonstop opposing the outfitter hand outs, and supporting the expansion of access yes, etc.

 

[BuzzH]

Even if HF/Epic/WTA-TAGs don't have the outfitter portal, they don't need it in order to set up efficient point parties. They manage each person's logon so they can just logon to each individual account to view points.

I'm not saying they use their data to set up efficient point parties, but why wouldn't a smart businessperson do that? Most here would't let a buddy buddy waste points in an averaging state like WY.

I dislike both the teet-supported-outfitters and license application services so I won't take a side if they scramble.

My point was, that one industry has an obvious leg up working with the Department...the other does not.

I even heard testimony yesterday that the "the application services have these huge databases of all their clients, that's unfair".

I guess outfitters cant set up a similar data base with potential clients?

It was a full on assault yesterday on anyone that wasn't beating the hinges off their doors begging for a hunt, or a past client.

So far today, its not much better...

 

[drifter52]

To be fair, Montana outfitters have it even tougher. Who wants to spend money to go shoot a 130” two year old mule deer?

A lot of diy residents & non residents do every year

 

[Dinkshooter]

Bulls for Buttheads
Bulls for Buttf&^%*
Bulls for Bastards
Bulls for Bitches

Sounds to me like they got off easy with the current title.

 

[cahunter805]

My point was, that one industry has an obvious leg up working with the Department...the other does not.

I even heard testimony yesterday that the "the application services have these huge databases of all their clients, that's unfair".

I guess outfitters cant set up a similar data base with potential clients?

It was a full on assault yesterday on anyone that wasn't beating the hinges off their doors begging for a hunt, or a past client.

So far today, its not much better...

Application services have huge databases because they build them and clients pay to use their services.

I’m curious how many members of Huntin fool who draw a WY tag use one of their suggested outfitters? A company like Huntin fool IMO has more clients that pay to hunt. A company like GoHunt or Epic it seems the majority of clients are using the data provided and going DIY.

If Sy or any other outfitter can’t book clients on a regular basis maybe they should do some investigation and possibly even restructure pricing or hunts. I wonder how many $3600 cow hunts Sy actually sells?

Thanks for the update today Buzz. Can’t wait to hear what else happens today!

 

[jryoung]

So, was attending the Wyoming Wildlife Task Force meeting today, minding my own business, like I always do...

Two pages deep and no one picked up in this.....Buzz is always up for some "good trouble"

Thanks for being there Buzz.

 

[Jdp010]

Sy's actual beef with the Tag pimp industry is their commission extortion to be on the list of suggested outfitters.

When a "member" asks for an outfitter referral, the list comes with an admonition to come back to the service to write up the contract and process the payment. The pimp then texts the outfitter your name so the outfitter is warned about booking you directly and cutting out the commission.

The hunter then pretends he doesn't understand that the real reason an outfitter is preferred/suggested is because they pay kickback.

It's the same battle the airlines/hotels wage with Expedia and other travel aggregator sites. Very few airlines (Southwest) don't pay the commission to be involved.

 

[cahunter805]

Sy's actual beef with the Tag pimp industry is their commission extortion to be on the list of suggested outfitters.

When a "member" asks for an outfitter referral, the list comes with an admonition to come back to the service to write up the contract and process the payment. The pimp then texts the outfitter your name so the outfitter is warned about booking you directly and cutting out the commission.

The hunter then pretends he doesn't understand that the real reason an outfitter is preferred/suggested is because they pay kickback.

It's the same battle the airlines/hotels wage with Expedia and other travel aggregator sites. Very few airlines (Southwest) don't pay the commission to be involved.

So he is mad that a company would find him clients but expect a kickback. Sounds like a standard business practice to me and a win/win for both parties. He just wants everything his way for free! Just like wanting all the special NR tags, landowner tags, wilderness law etc.

I really hope none of this takes hold in WY and that all of us as hunters residents/non residents can fight this together and stop anymore outfitter welfare from happening.